[MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)

[pholden at davtv.com]

Quoting ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu>:

> [Platt]
> What pages are you referring to? For example, where does he describe the 8-fold
> path?
> 
> [Arlo]
> Referred to here, "Peace of mind produces right values, right values produce
> right thoughts. Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce
> work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at
> the center of it all."
> 
> Some other relevant observations.
> 
> "He became aware that the doctrinal differences among Hinduism and Buddhism and
> Taoism are not anywhere near as important as doctrinal differences among
> Christianity and Islam and Judaism. Holy wars are not fought over them because
> verbalized statements about reality are never presumed to be reality itself."
> 
> "Zen has something to say about boredom. Its main practice of "just sitting" has
> got to be the world’s most boring activity...unless it’s that Hindu
> practice of being buried alive. You don’t do anything much; not move, not
> think, not care. What could be more boring? Yet in the center of all this
> boredom is the very thing Zen Buddhism seeks to teach. What is it? What is it
> at the very center of boredom that you’re not seeing?"
> 
> I suggest again you simply read ZMM, Platt. If you need additional resources
> afterwards, I'd be happy to suggest a few. Your local Zen Center, like the one
> Pirsig established in Minneapolis, should have some resources for you as well.

I don't see much about an ethical system in the above, and no mention of an 
8-fold path. I have read ZMM. That's why I asked. I thought I missed something.
Apparently not.

> [Platt]
> Sorry for the confusion. I meant the "and" to apply to "creative forces." To
> rephrase, do you disagree with Pirsig about Quality being a creative force?
> 
> [Arlo]
> "Quality is a creative force" is a profound metaphor. But it is not "Truth". Any
> symbolic representation will ultimately be incomplete. "... verbalized
> statements about reality are never presumed to be reality itself..." This is
> why mystic experience is valuable. It points outside the system.
> 
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had called
> "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece. Quality doesn't
> have to be defined. You understand it without definition, ahead of definition.
> Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual
> abstractions." (LILA)
> 
> "The Metaphysics of Quality associates religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality
> but it would certainly be a mistake to think that the Metaphysics of Quality
> endorses the static beliefs of any particular religious sect." (LILA)

Ah, the issue of Truth. We certainly act as if there is Truth, such as the
assertion that "Any symbolic representation will ultimately be incomplete."
Is that statement True, partially True, sometimes True, or what? Looks like
we might be getting involved in logical absurdities. 

> [Platt]
> If I pander to Christians, you pander to Indians.
> 
> [Arlo]
> I no more think Indian spirituality is a exclusive system than I do
> Christianity. But, with Pirsig, I believe Native American mysticism and
> spirituality, along with Zen Buddhism and Taoism, offer profound systems that
> should not only NOT be ignored, but actively considered. And, I believe, that
> one reason Pirsig found such profound similarity between Quality and the
> Buddha/Tao and Native American mysticism, is that these metaphors originate in
> non-S/O cultures (as is alluded to in the quote above). Remember that LILA ends
> in Pirsig recognizing that the non-S/O culture of the Native American had it
> right all along. "Good is a noun". 

Well, since it's all metaphors we can only guess about Pirsig's Truth. In one
instance he considers it good, in another he considers it impractical in the
modern world. 

> [Platt]
> Since the Founding Fathers believed in God and the Judeo-Christian ethic,
> creating a nation the envy of world, I really don't see the problem in
> following their lead.
> 
> [Arlo]
> First, Pirsig argues that the notion that "all men are created equal" comes from
> the Native American. Democracy comes to us from Ancient Greece, and is based on
> reason, not on the mandate of God. Those who set up the beginning government of
> this country relied heavily on reason. And for that we should be grateful.

Indeed I am grateful.

> But praytell what part of the "Judeo-Christian ethic" did thy rely on? Are you
> suggesting a theocracy?

That individual rights come from God, not other men.

> [Platt]
> The "problem" as Pirsig describes it is not with the Judeo-Christian ethics but
> with SOM intellect.  
> 
> [Arlo]
> The problem is with any ethical code forgetting it is just an analogy. And as
> such, it is culturally and situationally bound. Times change. We change. 

Yes. So reverting to ancient cultures such as those of the East and Indians
may not be all some think it's cracked up to be.

> [Arlo previously]
> "Oops" is simply meant to demean. The question is, do you believe that a "plan"
> for everything existed before everything? If so, where? In some "transcendent
> mind"? I don't ascribe a plan to the unfolding of the cosmos. It does so
> because of Quality, and as particulars collectivize into more and more complex
> patterns, yes, there are moments of "AHA!", where complexity takes off in a
> whole new direction. The question is, 100 trillion years ago, was there a
> design for "people"? Where?
> 
> And then all my other questions come back into play. 300 billion years of life
> on this planet. 150 million years of dinosaurs, with primates occupying only a
> blip in the biosphere. Only after major, random, climate and environmental
> events were primates able to flourish, and only then after 65 million years of
> evolution, with increasing complexity and thousands and thousands of species,
> was anything resembling primative man able to exist. And only then, due to a
> biological part of his brain, was man able to build social patterns (or social
> patterns were able to emerge out of biological co-activity). Was all this
> "planned" before it happened? 
> 
> [Platt]
> All based we are told on natural laws which somehow respond to mathematical
> formulations. Please explain. Coincidence? Luck? Oops?
> 
> [Arlo]
> >From our perspective, serendipity to be sure. But again I ask, was all this
> "planned" before it happened? That seems to be the fault-line we are
> straddling. As for mathematical formulations, I can't explain and defer to Case
> (if he's still eavesdropping). 
> 
> And let me ask you a side question. If all this is a preplanned design, what
> does it mean when we (humans) drive a species (flower, whale, bird, whatever)
> into extinction? Is that, too, preplanned? Are we destroying God's design when
> we do so? Or do the other parts of the design exist only to service us?
> 
> I ask this, because it would seem to me, that a belief in a preplanned designed
> would engender more respect for the design that it appears to. Religious people
> should be among the most vocal in stewardship and protection of God's design.
> Why is it always the other way around (seemingly)? 
> 
> Actually, what's quite telling here, is that Zen Buddhism and Native American
> spirituality, the same ethos that Pirsig uses to develop Quality, are also the
> most protective and respectful of "the design". While ethos steeped heavily in
> S/O dominance tend to be the most destructive of "the design". If Pirsig likens
> Quality to the Buddha, the Tao, and finds strong resonance in Native American
> spirituality and life, and these are all ethical systems that value respect for
> "being part of the world", shouldn't this be something we consider as quite
> important?

IMO the environmental movement is vastly overblown with the motive of gaining
control of people's lives, the ancient game of grabbing for power, always in
the name of the "public good." As for design, for your prospective it appear
to be flawed. Who knows what a larger perspective would reveal? Those who have
had mystic experiences often report that the experience showed them that it all
makes beautiful sense. But, I suppose they could be wrong.
    




-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/