[MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)

Tue Jan 23 08:56:59 PST 2007

excellent work Arlo, you heretic. 
Morality comes about in spite of religeon not as a product of it.
This thread is exactly played out in Dawkins' book, the arguments on both sides might as well have been lifted direct. He has a whole chapter devoted to why morality can't possibly come from religeon. 

He also rather aukwwardly demonstartes that it cannot be taken for granted that your founding fathers were all necessarily christians, Platt were you aware of this?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Arlo Bensinger
> Sent: 23 January 2007 15:57
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?)
> 
> 
> [Arlo previously]
> In what Book does "God" give us "Freedom of the Press"? Where does he 
> give us "Freedom of Assembly"? Where "The Right to Bear Arms"?
> 
> [Platt]
> These are intellectual rights derived from Christian ethics and 
> enlightenment philosophy as interpreted by the Founding Fathers. I 
> think their interpretation is right on.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Give me a biblical quote or passage to show me where these "derive" 
> from Christian ethics. Give me any biblical support that these 
> "rights" come from Christian ethics and not exclusively from 
> enlightenment reason.
> 
> [Arlo previously]
> Where does "God", in the Bible, bestow "individual rights" on people? 
> What about non-believers? Certainly he does not give them "individual 
> rights" in the Old Testement. Does Jesus give pagans the "right 
> to  assembly" in the New somewhere that I missed?
> 
> [Platt]
> "Belief" is not a prerequisite for an individual to have the rights 
> to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Can you give me _ANY_ Biblical quote or passage to support this? Why, 
> if this is a "Christian ethic", did the Founders permit slavery?
> 
> [Platt]
> Do you believe such basic individuals rights are granted by men and 
> thus can be justifiably taken away by men? If so, that's scary. 
> Gulags cannot be far behind.
> 
> [Arlo]
> The fact that Gulags existed proves they can indeed be taken away by 
> men. The better question is "should they"? The answer is "no". A 
> society that grants these rights is more moral, because it maximizes 
> Dynamic Quality. By allowing your freedom, I support my own. Humanist 
> reason. Not Divine Mandate. By proposing that rights come from God, 
> and not men, can Witch Hunts, beheadings and the wholesale slaughter 
> of non-believers be far behind?
> 
> And let's talk some more about "Christian ethics". What about the 
> primary message of Christ (other than accepting Him as Savior)? This 
> could easily be restated "Feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, heal 
> the sick". Would you suggest our laws be based on these? Or, again, 
> do you pick and choose "Christian ethics" as it gives you power over 
> others, dismissing those ethics that would cause you to sacrifice?
> 
> 
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