[MD] Quality decline

[pholden at davtv.com]

Quoting ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu>:

> [Platt]
> A trajectory, Arlo fails to mention, also followed by Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il
> and Castro, among others.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Once again, my entire post was about the errant trajectory that led from
> Marxism, through Leninism, to Stalinism. That other regimes followed the lead
> of brutal nationalism has nothing to do with original Marxist thinking, but
> everything to do with the odd combination of utopic Marxist ideology and
> Straussian-esque "man is stupid" neoconservatism. As for Castro, well, I expect
> you to squalk the Party Mantra. I hardly see him as an example of Marxist
> failure. If anything, it evidences the idiotic foreign policy debacle of the US.

Yes, we are not surprised that you consider Castro's Cuba a success. Nor that
you deny a connection between Marx's "original thinking" and the horrors of
communist countries such as China and North Korea.

> [Platt]
> In fact I would like to know of any country that followed "the noble ideas of
> Marx" that didn't either 1)fail or 2) become a tyranny.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Like I said, you can criticize Marx for being naively optimistic, and from a
> Straussian man-is-inherently-selfish perspective it would seem history has born
> Marx out to be too gracious towards man's inner nature.
> 
> As such, anything that attempted Marxism on larger nationalistic levels failed
> precisely for this reason, the reason that led Lenin to failure. Namely, a
> disbelief that man would work towards his own best interests, and the need for
> a coercive, propagandistic nationalist state to control him and orient his
> actions. 
> 
> We've had this conversation several times before, so I will take these comments
> as being just more deceptive rhetoric on your part, but Marxism in practice can
> be seen among the Amish, and was seen among some of the earlier Native
> populations, also Kabitzs in Israel afford an example. 

The question was about nations, not isolated small groups. By the way, what
ever happened to all those Hippie communes?

> [Platt]
> Also, Arlo conveniently fails to mention in his biased abbreviated history any
> mention of the KGB and gulags.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Ah yes, I failed to squalk your talking points, sorry. I think I was quite
> clear about the ends of the trajectory, that began with human liberty and ended
> with a brutal dictator bent on propping up the nationalistic state above all
> else.
> 
> So ignore everything that was said and focus instead on an contextually
> irrelevant ommisson. Yes, the trajectory led to a state that abused and discard
> human life. Yes, it led to gulags and secret police. But this says nothing to
> anything that I have said. Namely that Marx began as a (perhaps overly)
> optimistic treatise on ending human suffering, and soon adopted everywhere a
> Straussian "myth" of Nationalism, and that this Nationalism soon led to tyranny
> (were we only so quick to learn). 

Yes, only Arlo would consider armed political bullies like the KGB to be
"contextually irrelevant." 

> Now I expect the typical distortive rhetoric to kick in. If you want to have an
> honest, open dialogue, I am game. If you want to engage in your typical
> embarrassing crap, then either (1) don't bother or (2) expect me to call it for
> what it is.

See comment about "embarrassing crap" in my reply to Craig's post.




-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/