[MD] Quality decline

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Platt]
Maybe to you there are "actually greater freedoms" by purchasing a  community
snowblower. But not to those in the neighborhood.

[Arlo]
I disagree. In ZMM, Pirsig noted that the dialogue was keeping people from
seeing Quality, and he offered an expansion of the dialogue aimed at getting
people who "don’t know where to start because no one has ever told them
there’s such a thing as Quality in this world and it’s real". Its the
harbor effect, or the green flash of the sun, we see what our language tells us
to see... and our language has been invaded by mercantilist and consumerist
ideas, just as Pirsig notices it has been invaded by S/O orientation.

[Platt]
The important thing, as you've indicated elsewhere, is to maintain each 
individual's freedom to choose according to his own values and judgment.   

[Arlo]
Which is why the battle begins on a one-on-one basis, and any revolution will
occur only when the veils imposed by mercantilist language have been lifted.

[Platt]
We need not review the communal behaviors of the hippies that followed the
wrong track. 

[Arlo]
According to Pirsig, the only mistake the Hippies made was in mistaking
biologic for Dynamic Quality. The rest of their behavior he called "moral", and
I take this to include the communal, social-participatory engagement.

[Platt]
Nor do I see any appeal to living the life of the Amish. But,  I see nothing
wrong with anyone promoting "social orientations" so long as individual freedom
of choice is preserved.  

[Arlo]
Okay. 

[Platt]
I don't consider individualism to be immoral. Nor do I know of any  propaganda
that condemns us for been greedy and selfish except from some  Christian
fundamentalist preachers and liberal politicians.

[Arlo]
No, the propaganda is worse, it tells us that being greedy and selfish are
normal and desirably, even lofty, orientations to hold. I think being self-full
can be a good thing, everyone should strive for individual enlightenment. Like
all things, however, when carried to the extremes promoted in the modern
dialogue, we end up commodifying people, destroying others to get ahead, or
turning a blind eye to the suffering not only of anonymous "others", but to our
own neighbors. "Community" used to mean something. 

[Platt]
It's a question of where you draw the line. I opt for privacy, ownership  and
individual freedom. Your argument can be used to deprive anyone of  owning any
real estate on the grounds it deprives others freedom to use  it. 

[Arlo]
So its a matter of depriving one person the right to exclude all others, or
depriving everyone of the ability to use something? 

Like I said, this is the game we all agree to. We know that letting one person
own that lake deprives all our freedoms, but we let it happen because, we
believe, that our own freedom will one day come under the guise of us being the
ones who can exclude others from our "property".

And, yes, it is a matter of where to draw the line. This is why the balance of
private to public property is so important. Each time we "sell" of something to
one person, we restrict the freedoms of everyone else. And so we should
conserve, protect and be vigilant that our public space is adequately improved
as well.

Consider your shoreline. Should it be sold off to private millionaires seeking
luxury getaways? What would happen if the miles and miles of public beaches in
the Carolinas suddenly were replaced with "No Trespassing" signs and fences? It
would make a few people really happy, I'm sure, to have such wonderful property
all to themselves. But what about the rest of us?

[Platt]
I dont consider consumption and ownership to be a malignancy. Rather I  see
them as aspects of individual freedom.

[Arlo]
I only consider them a malignancy when they become the end in and of itself. As
for whether or not they are integral parts of "freedom", I doubt this too,
although that's what the modern conception of freedom really is, buying and
owning.

[Platt]
As for Marx, Jesus and the Buddha -- are they the authorities you look to  for
moral guidance?

[Arlo]
Among others.