[MD] -elitist ideas

[David M]

Hi Arlo/Case

I'd just like to comment that we have two (or is it 3?) ways
to look at this problem. What we are discussing is
behaviour, could be electrons, rocks, amoeba, people.
The behaviour we experience by being ourselves is
purposeful. When we look at the behaviour of other things
we first took an animistic approach and saw spirits in all
things, although some things like rocks seem a bit dull,
although this may be a time frame prejudice to some
extent. Science came along and suggested that some
behaviours are law bound and mechanical in nature.
Such behaviour involves no choice whatsoever.
So this gave us a new way to look at behaviour
that suggested no choice or spirit was involved
in certain behaviours. And we generally drew
a line between non-living and living.

But more recently is has become obvious that
very few forms of behaviour are law like and
can be described as determined.

And even if things are like like, how did these
laws become established? Were the laws chosen
in some sense?

There really is no way to say what determines behaviour
when observed from the outside. Is it without intention
or choice or is it lawlike and mechnical?

If someone or something is very consistent in their
behaviour you could presume a zombie or robot
but you may be wrong.

Interestingly, when we become repetitive in our
behaviour it becomes unconscious and habitual
and you lose conscious control over your behaviour.

Thirdly, some behaiours do seem open but entirely
random.

Think hard enough about law like mechanical behaviour
and what sense does it make because where do these laws
come from?

Think about electrons and rocks in terms of choice/agency
and you have to suspect it is very much simpler than being
a human being.

What does attraction and repulsion mean? Agentive or lawlike?

Where do we draw the line?
Is line drawing really valid at all?
We need to keep the possible arbirary nature of this line
always in mind, because we cannot tell where it should
start (non-life, life, or human) or even if it should start
(its a full spectrum of slight development from photons up).
Arthur M Young says that light behaves very oddly, always
taking the shortest route available to get from a to b.

David M




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Case" <Case at iSpots.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] -elitist ideas


>> [Case]
>> That's a fair question but what do you mean by value-experience? Are you
>> including value judgments and sentience as part of the value-experience
>> package?
>
> [Arlo]
> I'd say "sentience" is a complex mix of social and intellectual patterns,
> but is different from the experience of the amoeba not in "kind" but in
> "degree".
>
> [Case]
> And I would say that probably social patterns and certainly intellectual
> patterns required nervous systems to be manifest.
>
> [Case]
> An amoeba is a complex system that moves toward some optimum state of
> balance with its environment.
>
> [Arlo]
> Um, isn't "optimum" just another way to say "better" (or "best", perhaps)?
> What is different from my saying "an amoeba is a complex system that moves
> towards some better state with its environment"?
>
> [Case]
> Except that "better" implies awareness the difference and ability to 
> choose,
> disappointment. Introducing these notions provides the illusion of empathy
> without any real improvement in understanding of the events.
>
>> [Case]
>> Viewed in terms of value-as-preference or aesthetic judgment, one could 
>> as
>
>> easily focus on vinegar's preference for an amoeba free environment.
>> Vinegar's tolerance for amoebae could also be measured by introducing
>> amoebae into various pH values of diluted vinegar see how much vinegar is
>> needed to realize an environment free of amoebae.
>
> [Arlo]
> Sure, why not? Although this is an inorganic pattern of value, and the
> amoeba's is a biological pattern of value.
>
> [Case]
> What do you see as the gain from such anthropomorphism?
>
> [Arlo]
> As I've said before, in addition to the broad MOQ strokes, I see a lot of
> inter-level gradation. An amoeba and a dolphin are both biological 
> patterns,
> but even granting for the time being only biological value-experience to
> both, its clear to me the dolphin's is much more complex.
>
> So I'd say the amoeba responds exclusively on the biological level, but 
> that
> doesn't mean there is no value-experience on this level. The amoeba
> certainly lacks a post-experiential symbolic repertoire, as is required 
> for
> ascribing social and intellectual value. That is, "betterness" for the
> amoeba is experienced strictly within the biological and inorganic levels.
>
> [Case]
> This is a little weird but about what you expect when you get close to the
> edge but I would say an amoeba's responses are not purely biological in 
> the
> same way that carbon bonding is not purely inorganic. In other words an
> amoeba is a biological system that responds in a purely electrochemical 
> way.
> It is simply the level of complex chemical interactions that it involved 
> in
> its behavior.
>
> [Case]
> No but I think "experience" required a nervous system sophisticated enough
> to encode memory.
>
> [Arlo]
> So the amoeba does not "experience" anything? I know its a strange
> alteration of common language to say an electron "experiences" inorganic
> value, but if that amoeba doesn't experience, what does it do?
>
> Now, representing that experience symbolically, that's the biggie. And
> that's where minds, brains, and all that come in. For me, anyway.
>
> [Case]
> This is where I like Whitehead's notion of occasions or events as the
> fundamental units of process. Experience implies memory and learning; the
> integrations of the past with the present. These terms carry tons of extra
> meaning with them that simply do not apply. If the intent is to alter our
> understand of the terms themselves perhaps it is better just to use value
> neutral terms to start with.
>
>
>
>
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