[MD] What all is about.

[ian glendinning]

Hi Arlo, I think that is the main point ...

(I was just reacting to Ham's stereotypical caricature of "scientists"
getting in the way ... of the main point, that we as a culture are
conditioned to that pre-MoQ, divisive way of thinking .... whatever
our "labor label".)

I think your linking of individual freedoms (and responsibilities) to
pursue Quality / Arete with the continued misrepresentation of simply
equating this to free-market economy is spot on.

Ian

On 11/9/07, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
> [Ham]
> Objective research and technology (!) .... , for a theorist in
> Science or Philosophy to allow his imagination to "run wild" in order
> to gain notoriety or celebrity status demeans the credibility of his
> profession.
>
> [Platt]
> Same goes for an artist who sets about to gain notoriety or celebrity
> by by letting his imagination "run wild" for shock value..
>
> [Arlo]
> In other words, gentlemen, the focus should be on Quality, not on the
> accumulation of static social-symbolic patterns of value, such as
> fame and fortune. Were all humans, not just "scientists" and
> "artists" motivated by this pursuit, rather than the
> generation-preservation-accumulation of social value. Were we all
> motivated by intellectual-aesthetic, reason-artisitic, and generally
> more concerned with furthering knowledge and art than with material
> commodities, celebrity, wealth and a score of other social patterns
> of value, then perhaps life would take on the seemingly utopic vision
> of Star Trek.
>
> Indeed, wasn't this the underlying lament of ZMM? That people were,
> by virtue of a metaphysics that excised Quality, no longer following
> the path of the craftsman-artist-scientist-philosopher, but were
> instead becoming alienated, fixated on style-vendors.. the one Pirsig
> bemoans as "We're all strangers again! Folks, I just forgot the
> biggest gumption trap of all. The funeral procession! The one
> everybody's in, this hyped-up, fuck-you, supermodern, ego style of
> life that thinks it owns this country." (ZMM)
>
> In short, isn't the problem here that its the Everyman, not just
> "scientists" and "artists", that are not pursuing Quality? Or do we
> expect "scientists" and "artists" to live to a higher, more-noble
> creed than the lowly vermin plumbers, mechanics, librarians, nurses
> and 'fill-in-any-profession'? Wasn't the whole point of ZMM to break
> down this artificial barrier and show that we all should be pursuing
> Quality-Arete-Excellence, and approach all our endeavors and
> craftsman-artists and philosopher-scientists rather than fixating on
> celebrity or wealth?
>
> The problem Platt bemoans can be restated as such. While the Quality
> artist may achieve wealth and fame as incidental results of her/his
> pursuit of Quality, the low-quality artist sees wealth and fames as
> target of her/his pursuit. But within a strict capitalist-market
> paradigm, there is no way to fault the low-quality artist. When a
> record filled with hate, misogyny and violence catapults to number
> one, the artist is a brilliant capitalist who saw a market need and
> filled it, and likely will die a very rich man. Indeed, I'd say, the
> social success of such an endeavor is based squarely on a free-market
> underscored by S/O thinking as Pirsig describes in ZMM. Most simply
> stated, the market is a measure of value. When the type of product
> that Ham and Platt bemoan is a stunning market success, this is
> evidence of that Quality-Arete is not part of the metaphysical
> dialogue, and as such people are left scrambling for the only
> immediate S/O tangible they see: social-level celebrity and wealth.
> People want to be famous and rich, not wise and Good.
>
> The final, short version restating Ham's and Platt's lament:
> subverting or neglecting intellectual-aesthetic, Quality-Arete
> pursuits in favor of lower-level social achievement is bad, this is
> true not only if you are a "scientist" or an "artist", but for us
> all, no matter what label our labor is given.
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>