[MD] Chan and qi/eastern intellect

[ian glendinning]

Hi Bo,

Still feeling that this is reduced to a terminological issue.

Your change was "downgrading" intellect to a static level 4 of GOF-SOMism
My change was "upgrading" level 4 to more than GOF-Intellect.

As I said if you wish to insist on Level-4 as static (as per the
author's original intent - no argument there) then I simply ask where
in the MoQ is enlightened rationality beyond this static SOL Level-4 ?

I can see the attraction of wanting to see MoQ as not just another
intellectual (static) pattern .... but I'm just being pragmatic ...
giving it a place to evolve and influence the levels below, rather
than just saying it's a metaphysical absolute.

I'll come back to more of your points here.
I agree this is worth bottoming-out.
(Do my comments about Gav's intelligence vs intellect help ? ... see
the S/O Pragmatism thread.)
Ian

On 11/10/07, skutvik at online.no <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
> Hi Ian
>
> 9 Nov. you spoke thus.:
>
> > You say in here "But the MOQ is more than its intellectual level and
> > the shift from intellect's SOM role to the 4th. level one is a
> > Copernican Revolution ..."
>
> > Are you now saying you see level 4 as more than SOM .... a shift
> > from SOM to Level 4 ? I though previously in SOLAQI you saw SOM "as"
> > the level 4 - the subject-object-level.
>
> I can't see any deviation from my SOL interpretation that the 4th. level
> is a "closed S/O case". And yet, there was/is a shift from intellect's
> hey-day as S/OM to its more modest role as a static quality level and
> this "extreme makeover" is so horribly difficult to convey. When I think
> about it it's easy, but to formulate it in words .... l laboured with the said
> post a whole day - agonized over it really - and finally recalled the
> "black faces/white vase" as an useful example.
>
> But now it sounds like you haven't heard about this (SOM to level 4)
> shift before. (I'm grateful for your interest Ian so don't take this as a
> complaint) However the point is - again - this magical transformation
> from a S/O Metaphysics opposing a Quality Metaphysics (ZAMM) to
> LILA when SOM has become the 4th. level (in the SOL of course, but
> it's the only way to harmonize the two books and make sense of the
> 4th. level - of the MOQ)
>
> But your "GOF intellect" - or SOM - lives on under a guise of  being
> "the intellectual level", I mean people speak of "the intellectual level",
> but it's really GOF they mean, they haven't undergone the
> transformation. Pirsig MUST have but at times I doubt it. The said
> letter to Paul was a study in avoiding the real issue. (OK another time)
>
> > But later, you also say " ...understand the new reality, where the
> > former SOM becomes the 4th static level"
>
> > I notice you now using "former" (I used GOF) ... which is a good
> > start, but here you seem to be equating this with level 4 again,
> > rather than suggesting SOM was just a role in level 4. Do you
> > see"intellect" as more than SOM or not ? (Does Gav's distinction
> > between intelligence and intellect help ?)
>
> Yes, MOQ's 4th. level is the S/O distinction, but now a light-bulb
> appeared above my head. Your GOF intellect isn't really the S/O
> distinction but the S/O METAPHYSICS where intellect=mind;
>
> > Confused again, but closer.
>
> OK, but stay with me this we must settle.
>
> Bo
>
>
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