[MD] subject/object: pragmatism

[Ron Kulp]

Arlo,
I agree with your statements, I am viewing intellectual as an
interactive process. When defined in this way pre-intellect equates to
pre-opinion
Pre-ought. By not allowing opinion to be formed by cultural values
But by personal experience we can gain a broader and more accurate
 realm of awareness. I think this is what Pirsig means by intellect
pre-intellect and what James means by "pure" experience.
At least it hits all the tumblers in my lock.

-Ron


-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Ron Kulp
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11:58 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] subject/object: pragmatism



-----Original Message-----


[Ron]
Intellectual is the VALUE of the individual to the social/cultural. 
The reason why intellectual is so wily to pin down is because It 
introduces the value of the individual to their culture.

[Ian]
.... and "freedom" is a key feature of intellectual. freedom to 
question and reason (and express that).

[Arlo]
With all due respect, I think you are both wrong.

Firstly, all levels consist of a value relationship between the 
individual constituents of that level, and the greater collective 
patterns their activity forms. A human body, for example, is the 
value relationship between the "individual" cell and the "collective" 
we call "the body". That is, all patterns exist as some form of 
relationship between "individuals" and "collectives", it simply 
depends on the level of your focus and your pragmatic goals at hand 
as to what "individuals" and what "collectives" that become salient.


To paint "social level patterns" are some form of "group think", with 
intellect as some form of "individual think" paints the picture that 
before the Greeks no one thought for themselves, and that in modern 
times we view the world from a singular, objective vantage point. It 
also paints the idea that "reason" is not constrained nor influenced 
by "culture". Pirsig mentions the origins of this "myth of 
independence" in LILA. What emerges when you look it at is not 
individuals rising above collectives, but 
individuals-within-collectives in both scenarios responding to value. 

Ron:
I thought this is what I was saying.

Arlo:
In the case of our Western world, this became a response to the value 
of S/O dualism, as I see it, the notion that there is a materiality 
independent of humans, upon which acts universal and natural forces 
which can be measure and recorded by objective human subjects.

Secondly, "freedom" is not a feature of ANY static level, but always 
and at once comes from outside the levels, from DQ. As such, each 
level responds to this DQ given the constraints and affordances of 
its particular level. A biological pattern is afforded "freedom" only 
within and constrained by the possibilities allowed within the 
biological level. "Freedom" when it is witnessed on ANY level is seen 
as "evolution". When a new football team is formed in Cleveland, it 
is because of of DQ acting on, and being responded to by social-level
patterns.

Ron:
I thought this is what I was saying. 

Arlo:
Intellectual patterns are as static as social patterns. That BOTH can 
change and adapt and evolve is based for both in those patterns 
responding to DQ, a response that is certainly constrained (and 
afforded possibility) by the particular level in question.

Ron:
I thought this is what I was saying. Intellect is a value not a level.
Intellect is what we call The VALUE of individual and social. To view
them
As a static unchanging level is as you say is wrong. But that's not what
I'm saying.

Try reading the post again keeping in mind that I agree with your
statements
And tell me what you think:

Intellectual is the VALUE of the individual to the social/cultural.
The reason why intellectual is so wily to pin down is because It 
introduces the value of the individual to their culture.
In the levels we transform from collective generalizations to 
The relationship of specific Individual experience to the 
whole.
The value being based on the contributing factor.
Based on this, MOQ becomes a high value contribution to the 
social Level and it is this which defines it's intellectual 
pattern.

Its intellectual pattern stresses this point. And might make 
it The highest value of intellectual patterns.

 

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