[MD] subject/object: pragmatism

[David M]

Hi DMB

Good post. One thing. We perhaps need to be fairer to Plato but
seeing other ways to read Plato. The Christian reading carries the
problems Nietzsche suggests. But some of the contrasts Plato
draws about what are good do set up things that are still good
for us MQers and perhaps higher. For example, are beauty and
justice higher goods than reproduction and plenty of food in some
sense? Just a minor quibble.

Thanks
David M

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david buchanan" <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] subject/object: pragmatism



All thread participants and interested MOQers:

Arlo said to Ron:
...And "intellect" has historically pretended it was independent of 
social-cultural patterns. It attempts to isolate "man" and present the image 
that his vision is clear, that in fact society obscures that vision. It 
presents the illusion that there is a "pure" subject-object value 
relationship that is the goal of intellect, one which sees through the haze 
of distortion created by social patterns.

dmb says:
Right. I guess it goes all the way back to the point where "man" is defined 
as the rational animal. He's above nature by virtue of his capacity to 
reason. This is reflected in the tendency to asceticism and all the moral 
codes that dictate the suppression of our appetites and instincts. Fasting, 
sexual abstinence, vows of silence and such. As Nietzsche points out this 
life-denying, world-hating neurosis is found in all areas of the culture. 
"Christianity is Platonism for the people", he says. And the Modern 
philosophers created the ego, the subjective self where the "soul" had once 
been and, he says, and is equally based on religious superstitions.

I'm glad Arlo used the word "historically" because its important to notice 
that the distinction between the social and intellectual levels is an 
abstraction that characterizes concrete historical events and the political 
struggles that continue even now. As is the case with all abstractions, like 
"democracy" and "justice" for example, any concrete example we point to will 
be a lot fuzzier than the abstraction itself. These same abstractions can be 
seen in the MOQ's conception of the practical self. You know, the subjective 
self, the cartesian ego goes out the window with SOM and we are instead 
conceived as a collection of patterns from all levels. Its not that there is 
a subjective self that has these patterns. Here again, the levels aren't 
marked out with bold white lines. They are abstractions drawn from the 
messier and larger world of experience. They refer to the various impulses 
and conflicting tendencies that we are. If the social and intellectual 
levels are engaged in an historical and political conflict upon the world 
stage, then you can bet your ass that its also going on in your self. We are 
that history. We are that evolution. The processes by which we evolved 
remain and continue to exert their demands so that we all have an array of 
tensions within. And the lines between the levels are drawn to help us sort 
that out. Who was it that said history is biography?

I guess a big part of the point here is to say that we ought not expect too 
much percision from this categories. This about how hard it is to say 
exactly what "democracy" and "justice" and "rights" are and think about how 
hard it is to find anything like a pure example in concrete reality. Does 
the difficulty in those cases lead you to conclude that such notions are 
unreal or unimportant? The famously ambigous I-know-it-when-I-see-it 
attitude is entirely appropriate when it comes to abstract concepts, don't 
you think?

Thanks,
dmb




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