[MD] subject / object logic

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Platt]
What Arlo fails to say is that the author makes a 
distinction between real and imaginary selves, and states a warning

[Arlo]
Arlo didn't fail to point out anything. I simply 
referenced an article I thought was interesting 
and related to the topic being discussed. Since 
the link led to the full text, and I assume 
everyone is capable of left-clicking on a link, nothing was hidden here.

[Platt]
"But if we have lost reality in the process, we 
shall have struck a poor bargain." (from aforementioned article).

[Arlo]
As I said, the concept of self, although 
illusory, brings great pragmatic rewards. Seems I already echoed this caution.

[Platt]
Dangerous? How so?. If there are no selves, who can pose a threat?

[Arlo]
Does a volcano pose a threat? Does it have a "self"?

[Platt]
This reference contains the following caveat:

[Arlo]
Ah, you've proven you can click on a link like I 
would have assumed. Excellent! Although I take it 
you skipped over anything and everything to find 
only that related to the "controversy", so that 
you can smugly sit back and feel good that you 
have debunked the Buddhist notion of anatta.

Certainly it is controversial. And as I said I am 
not expert in Buddhism. Maybe some of the more 
knowledgeable among us can chime in on this concept.

[Platt]
Seems I am not alone in questioning the illusory 
self. Some far smarter than me also judge this truth to be of low quality.

[Arlo]
The concept of self allows great pragmatic 
reward. Attaching too greatly to this concept is 
as low quality as detaching from it too greatly.

Pirsig noticed this in ZMM.

"But one day in the classroom the professor of 
philosophy was blithely expounding on the 
illusory nature of the world for what seemed the 
fiftieth time and Phædrus raised his hand and 
asked coldly if it was believed that the atomic 
bombs that had dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki 
were illusory. The professor smiled and said yes. 
That was the end of the exchange.

Within the traditions of Indian philosophy that 
answer may have been correct, but for Phædrus and 
for anyone else who reads newspapers regularly 
and is concerned with such things as mass 
destruction of human beings that answer was 
hopelessly inadequate. He left the classroom, left India and gave up." (ZMM)

But that didn't lead Pirsig into a 
no-holds-barred embrace of the self in the other 
direction. Instead, balance is achieved by dismissing both extreme attachments.

"Zen Buddhists talk about "just sitting," a 
meditative practice in which the idea of a 
duality of self and object does not dominate 
one's consciousness. What I'm talking about here 
in motorcyele maintenance is "just fixing," in 
which the idea of a duality of self and object 
doesn't dominate one's consciousness. When one 
isn't dominated by feelings of separateness from 
what he's working on, then one can be said to 
"care" about what he's doing. That is what caring 
really is, a feeling of identification with what 
one's doing. When one has this feeling then he 
also sees the inverse side of caring, Quality 
itself. ... So the thing to do when working on a 
motorcycle, as in any other task, is to cultivate 
the peace of mind which does not separate one's 
self from one's surroundings. " (ZMM)