[MD] subject / object logic

[Platt Holden]

> [Platt]
> Second, my real thoughts will lead me to assuaging my thirst with a real
> glass of water. That you don't see the connection between the physical 
and
> mental worlds is not surprising considering your other mindsets. 
> 
> [Arlo]
> Which is a complete revision of the original argument. That thoughts lead 
to
> pragmatic, valuable activity (such as finding a glass of water, when have 
I
> denied? But the "self" is also a thought.

No reversal. Thoughts are real. You limit reality to the physical realm, 
the first two moral levels. (Ironically, you insist on the influence of 
culture on thought, but then claim both are illusions.) 

> [Platt]
> Pirsig's philosophy is postmodern only in the sense that it's unique. 
> 
> [Arlo]
> So now postmodern means unique? No, Pirsig's philosophy is postmodern in 
its
> denial of the primary empirical reality of subjects and objects, it
> adherence to the view that our intellectual descriptions of the world are
> always, inescapably rooted in language (social), and its denial that
> rationalism (a la modernism) is the path to happiness.

The postmodern belief that truth doesn't exist is certainly unique.
And if you prefer a world without the rationalism of science and 
technology, sell your motorcycle and go live live with the Bushmen. 
The suggestion that the MOQ isn't rational boggles the mind.  
  
> [Arlo had said]
> No, both memories and the self are equally "real", and equally 
"illusory",
> and are existentially similar.
> 
> [Platt]
> Both real AND illusory, like my cat is also my dog. That makes perfect
> sense. I guess in your ivory tower, words are meaningless.
> 
> [Arlo]
> The typical, expected distortions, followed by another boring cliche 
assault
> on the academy. Talk about "ho hum".

Avoiding the issue as usual by throwing mud. 

> [Platt had said]
> Neither is history I suppose. No wonder you libs are so eager to  ignore 
the
> wisdom of the past.
> 
> [Arlo ridiculed the inane rhetoric of that statement]
> Oh yes, we "libs" are sooo eager to ignore wisdom, deny freedom, side  
with
> the enemy, see American soldiers killed, lie, cheat and throw  good,
> wholesome conservatives like yourself into gulags. Your  constant 
pandering
> to right-wing talk radio nonsense continues to be  shameless. Since I 
also
> gather this is simply more master-baiting,  that you must feel an empty 
spot
> in your soul when your are not  engaged in vitriolic exchanges with
> "commies", I'll pass. I have better things to do.
> 
> [Platt]
> Ho-hum. The usual, totally predictable diatribe when you run out of 
cogent
> argument. 
> 
> [Arlo]
> Oh, right, like your inane statement deserved "cogent response". When you
> dribble such stupid talk-radio bile into the dialogue, Platt, all one can 
do
> is respond by showing the outright moronic nature of such statements. 
"libs
> are eager to ignore the wisdom of the past"... Please. Such stuff is just
> stupid, shameless and moronic. But hey, why break tradition...

And more mud. Incapable of keeping a civil tongue in your head much less
coming up with a cogent response. 

> [Platt]
> You bet, especially the implied claim that the MOQ is a Buddhist 
philosophy.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Yes, let's  ignore what Pirsig "claims" about his own philosophy. 

Show me where Pirsig says, " The MOQ is a Buddhist philosophy." In fact he 
says the opposite. "Mystics will tell you that once you've opened the door 
to metaphysics you can say good-bye to any genuine understanding of 
reality. Thought is not a path to reality." (Lila, 5) "Buddhist philosophy" 
is an oxymoron. 

> [Platt]
> I tend to think whatever Buddhist notions you think are derived from the 
MOQ
> are open to question since they are not spelled out in any detail in
> Pirsig's works. 
> 
> [Arlo]
> Really? I found them to be. Ah, but I included Pirsig's first book, what 
he
> calls "the path to enlightenment" in "his works", as well as subsequent
> interviews and exchanges with Ant and others. I also include his activity 
to
> promote and sponsor Zen meditation. 

You'll find what you're looking for. Zen masters say enlightenment is your
everyday, ordinary awareness, not something you have to go anywhere on a 
"path" to discover. Pirsig says the same thing in his later book: Quality 
is direct experience. As for meditation, it's a technique to alter the 
normal conscious state. Nothing especially Buddhist about it. Hindus 
meditate. I'll be some Western scientists meditate, too. .