[MD] Value and the Individual

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Arlo had asked]
People without kids "should" pay for education, but they shouldn't "be forced 
to". Is that right?

[Craig]
No & Yes.  People without kids "should" support education (public or private)
to the extent they value it.

[Arlo]
No AND yes? Its either voluntary charity or it isn't. So we leave it optional
for parents without kids to decide whether or not they want to fund education.
Is that right?

[Craig]
I find dubious your theory that people should be forced to do what others think
is in their interest. 

[Arlo]
In a democracy, the majority decides the regulations for all. But I am glad you
think its immoral to force me to pay for a war you think "is in my interest".

[Craig]
Ideally  roads could be financed by user fees:  vehicle registration,
commercial vehicle tariffs, fuel taxes, etc. 

[Arlo]
Are you talking about privatizing the roads? Make them all toll roads
essentially?

[Craig]
You would still have to support roads to the extent they are used by police/
military/fire departments, etc.)

[Arlo]
I would HAVE to? Mighty big words coming from someone who spent an email
complaining about being told what they have to do!

So justify this. Why would I have to? Because you think its in my best
interest??? Hmmm..... 

[Arlo had asked]
Do we care about the poor school districts, those in low socio-economic areas?

[Craig]
Some people do, some don't.

[Arlo]
Non-answer. In poor areas where schools could not function on local charitable
contributions alone, what do we do? Close the schools? 

Right now, for example, local tax revenue for education is supplemented by
federal taxes, ensuring that poor counties receive adequate funding. How would
your "charity system" compensate? Or is this a case of championing
social-darwinism?

[Craig]
I shouldn't have to do this to protect my rights.  That's what governments
are for--not the opposite.

[Arlo]
Nor should I have to run for office to end an illegal war, or to prevent my
being forced to pay for one that I don't believe in. But you seem to have
little problem stealing my money to pay for that. Oh wait, its in my best
interest, isn't it?

In the meantime, a democracy means we accept the policies of the government we
elect, if we disagree, we have every opportunity to change them.

[Arlo had asked]
Should we make support of the military voluntary?

[Craig]
Another bad analogy, since the alternative to a national military would be 
competing private armies. 

[Arlo]
A great analogy. Sorry you want to dodge it. By your own logic, valuable social
services will naturally get enough charity to operate. Why not the military?
What's wrong with "competing private armies"? I though competition made
everything better?

[Craig]
One the other hand, competing private schools sounds good.

[Arlo]
Yes, from a social-darwinist perspective, I'm sure they do. 

[Craig]
Sorry, I was misled by the "psu.edu" 

[Arlo]
Thought we were talking about compulsory K12 schooling. Yes, I work at a
university.

But lest you think I am status quo about education, I have been involved in
change efforts for years, have been dedicated to going into public schools,
including my daughters, being involved, and arguing for improvements. 

[Craig]
I guess the system of privilege consists of better schools.

[Arlo]
For some, sure. 

[Craig]
Why not let the voucher system bring the public schools up to the level of
private ones, rather a system that tries to bring the private school system
down to the level of public schools.  

[Arlo]
Again, Japanese and Finnish public schools are tops in the world. And they are
public. And they server everyone. Rich and poor. Since their model serves all,
and provides a great foundational education to the entire populace, I am for
that.

Why do you think those public schools do better than our private schools?

[Craig]
This is probably the worst theory of education I've ever heard.  Your first
obligation as a parent should be to your own kid. 

[Arlo]
And it is. But as a member of a community, who reaps the rewards of the
community, you also have an obligation to support public education. 

Just as I have an obligation to support the military.

Just as we all have an obligation to support road infrastructure. 

[Arlo]
Who determines if that obligation is met?... Who is the government to tell me
what's best for my kid? 

[Craig]
This is a legitimate function of all governments.

[Arlo]
So its legitimate for government to tell you what's best for your kid...  okay.
What if I disagree? What if government tells me what's best for my kid is
school, but I say its work? 

[Craig]
You are not required to provide "the best", but to at least meet standards.

[Arlo]
Who determines these "standards"? What criteria? What end? So kids can work?
Vote? Do we make "philosophy" a standard? Typing? Math? Calculus? Art?

But I think all this is mute. If you don't believe that everyone should chip in
to pay for having an educated population, even parents without children, then
there is little more we can say but volley the same ball back and forth.

I think it is an obligation of citizenhood to support an educated populace, and
I find nothing wrong with collecting taxes to ensure that all children have
access to a quality education, no matter their local socio-economic conditions.

You feel that it is not an obligation for citizenhood to do so, and that the
only people who should fund education are those with kids (or those who choose
to do so voluntarily).  You seem to have no problem considering that children
in poorer areas will receive a lesser quality education, which I suppose is
indicative of your belief in social-darwinism.

You seem to be fixated on "private schools" (although I do believe your focus
is for different reasons than Platt's), even though there are many examples of
the highest quality education coming from public schools. I contend it is not a
"private-public" issue, but one of community-valuation of education, and
involvement by the community and the families. 

Everywhere I have seen success, this is the reason. Everywhere I have seen
failure, this is the cause. 

In the end, Craig, we are going to keep funding public education for as far as
I can see. We do so because despite gaps in valuation we as a people value the
idea of a educated populace with access to the same quality education whether
you live in the Hamptons or in a small, defunct mining town on the West
Virginia-Kentucky line. We may fail at the goal here and there, but its a goal
worth keeping. It is certainly not one I'd ever opt to replace with a
social-darwinist system of privilege.