[MD] Science and the MOQ

[pholden at davtv.com]

Quoting Heather Perella <spiritualadirondack at yahoo.com>:

> Platt,
> 
>      Bo has already answered and said something like,
> "I can see your trying to meet me half-way, but
> without the intellectual level being SOM only I can't
> agree."  Bo's invested so much in the SOL
> (intellect=SOM only route) that for him to back down
> on this would be decades of argument wasted on his
> behalf.  It would indeed take much meekness on his
> part to take this step.
> 
> 
> SA


SA,

Thanks. I must have missed Bo's response. 

Platt



> 
> 
> 
> Ron:
> > > Excellent .  
> > 
> > Yes, excellent. I wonder if Bo concurs?
> > 
> > Platt
> > 
> >  
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On
> > Behalf Of Arlo
> > > Bensinger
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:07 PM
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] Science and the MOQ
> > > 
> > > Hi Ian,
> > > 
> > > No, I don't think we disagree. I personally like 
> > > strange loops and recursions, my point I suppose 
> > > was that we have to accept this circularity and 
> > > its limitations (and benefits) when we start to 
> > > define something according to itself.
> > > 
> > > There are certainly, as Ron points out, 
> > > "intellectual patterns" we talk about here that 
> > > are descriptions of the MOQ. But a metaphysics 
> > > (any metaphysics, I would say) is more of an 
> > > orientation, a "Way", the active construction of 
> > > the system in the first place. SOM runs into the 
> > > same self-referential question, is SOM-itself a 
> > > "subject" or an "object"? I'd say "neither", but 
> > > a way of framing the world INTO subjects and
> > objects.
> > > 
> > > You see the "problem", of course. Any system that 
> > > "divides" the cosmos can't be contained within 
> > > any of its divisions. By definition, it is above
> > those divisions.
> > > 
> > > Pirsig mentions this in ZMM. "Quality is the 
> > > continuing stimulus which our environment puts 
> > > upon us to create the world in which we live. All 
> > > of it. Every last bit of it. ... Now, to take 
> > > that which has caused us to create the world, and 
> > > include it within the world we have created, is 
> > > clearly impossible. That is why Quality cannot be 
> > > defined. If we do define it we are defining 
> > > something less than Quality itself." (ZMM)
> > > 
> > > I'm obviously on a "verb" kick here, and its not 
> > > entirely Ulysses S. Grant that is to blame, 
> > > although that quote sums up a lot of what I think 
> > > in very few words. Pirsig, by the way, also 
> > > supports this. "Quality is not a thing. It is an
> > event." (ZMM)
> > > 
> > > In Pirsig's talk with John on the existence of 
> > > ghosts for Indians, he says, "Those Indians and 
> > > medieval men were just as intelligent as we are, 
> > > but the context in which they thought was
> > completely different." (ZMM)
> > > 
> > > And that captures (I think) what I've said. The 
> > > MOQ is "the context in which we think".
> > > 
> > > It is a Way. A Weltanschauung (in the untranslated
> > German sense).
> > > 
> > > And let me be clear, I don't think this is just 
> > > Pirsig's MOQ, but applies to the nature of all 
> > > metaphysical inquiries. Pirsig says as much in 
> > > LILA. "There already is a metaphysics of Quality. 
> > > A  subject-object metaphysics is in fact a 
> > > metaphysics in which the first division of 
> > > Quality - the first slice of undivided experience 
> > > - is into subjects and objects." In this sense, 
> > > I'd argue, "metaphysics of Quality" is redundant. 
> > > There is Quality. And there are Metaphysical 
> > > descriptions of that Quality. We more or less 
> > > look past this redundancy due to Pirsig's 
> > > particular use of the word "Quality", and maybe
> > that's part of the
> > > confusion.
> > > 
> > > So we start with an undefinable Quality, that is 
> > > an "event" not a "thing", that is approachable 
> > > always only through allegory and analogy, our 
> > > "way" of dividing Quality becomes the "context in 
> > > which we think", our Way of Being (or maybe 
> > > Metaphysics with a capital "M", but this is 
> > > active not descriptive). And then attempts to 
> > > describe this context form the intellectual 
> > > patterns we refer to as a metaphysics - which 
> > > then kicks off the self-referential recursions 
> > > since these are descriptions can never contain
> > that which they describe.
> > > 
> > > Make sense? (If so, you may be alone. :-))
> > > 
> > > Arlo
> > > 
> > > 
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