[MD] the subjective

[MarshaV]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] the subjective


On Sunday 3 August 2008 3:55 AM Marsha writes:

Greetings,

I would like to hear some thoughts about the "subjective experience".
Because the minute I become aware of it, it becomes an object.  Seems there
is no way to get at it without falling into an infinite regress. Or when you
become aware of it, it no longer represents the subjective experience.
Conventionally, of course.

In the MOQ it is experience (quality, value, process, etc.).

Thoughts?

Hi Marsha and all,

I am unclear what you mean by Conventionally.  My understanding of
convention is culture¹s set of glasses.  IMO If awareness is divided by
DQ/SQ how can it create objectivity?  By denying that DQ exists?  There can
be no order without DQ.  There can be no manifestation without an undefined
middle.  MOQ is beautiful.

Joe

Greetings Joe,

Yes, the MOQ is beautiful!  But I have always been attracted to Eastern 
philosophy, initally by Krishnamurti's writings.  Now I am finding Buddhism 
also beautiful.

<<<Anybody feel free to correct me if what I am writing is confused or 
downright wrong.>>>

Within Buddhism there are two truths.  (Not a truth and a falsehood, but two 
truths.)  One of these is the _conventional truth_, which is the ordinary 
empirical truth about the world.  It is "a truth dependent upon tacit 
agreement, an everyday truth, a truth about things as they appear to 
accurate ordinary investigation, as judged by appropriate human standards." 
I equate _conventional truth_ to the static side of quality.

The other truth is _ultimate truth_.  It is characterized by 'emptiness', 
and further, by the emptiness of emptiness.  The ultimate truth is the "way 
things are when they are independent of convention, or to put it another 
way, the way things turn out to be when we subject them to analysis with 
intention of discovering the nature they have from their own side, as 
opposed to the characteristics we impute to them."   I equate _ultimate 
truth_ to Quality (DQ & sq).

When I wrote, "Conventionally, of course.", I was stating as I investigate 
'subjectivity' from the conventional, everyday point-of-view.  When I try to 
"grasp", or define subjectivity it disappears.  It becomes objectified. 
Then I might look to see what has objectived it, and again the subjective 
experience becomes the object, etc., etc., etc.

The _middle way_ in Buddhism would be between things existing as objects and 
things not existing at all.  All entities are dependent arisen.  'Every 
entity depends for its existence on causes and conditions, upon its parts, 
upon wholes to which it belongs, and for its identity on **nominal and 
conceptual imputation and conventions**.'  I equate the _middle way_ with 
the MOQ as a whole; interrelated, ever-changing static patterns of value 
within a ground of Dynamic Quality.

This is my interpretation, augmented by some borrowed text.  I hope I 
haven't confused you more.  It's a bit more than you asked for, but my use 
of 'conventionally' is embedded in my struggle to understand Nagarjuna's 
MMK.  Please ignore if I've made a mess of it.

Marsha












On 8/3/08 3:55 AM, "MarshaV" <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:

>
> Greetings,
>
> I would like to hear some thoughts about the "subjective experience". 
> Because
> the minute I become aware of it, it becomes an object.  Seems there is no 
> way
> to get at it without falling into an infinite regress.  Or when you become
> aware of it, it no longer represents the subjective experience.
> Conventionally, of course.
>
> In the MOQ it is experience (quality, value, process, etc.).
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
> stars.........
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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