[MD] A fine mess

[Ian Glendinning]

Bo Said

"I understand [intellect] as THE VALUE OF THE SUBJECT/OBJECT
DISTINCTION"

I also understand that as the distinguishing feature of intellect when
it emerged emerged (historically), but it didn't stop evolving there.

Bo also said
"the 4th level is a MOQ subset, thus the MOQ can't be an intellectual
subset, that's for sure."

Logically true with your definition Bo, and equally logically, not
necessarily true with mine. You are simply taking a very static
(SOMist) view of the various MoQ items we are talking about including
MoQish intellect, which in fact does not exist in your interpretation.

Regards
Ian

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:30 AM,  <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
> Andrè.
>
> 7 Dec. you wrote:
>
> Bodvar to Ron:
>> > As said to Ian logic is universal, but the premises one starts from
>> > determine the outcome and I meant by the MOQ premises ... etc. BTW what
>> > relevance has the Wikipedia article on "truth" for the MOQ or its SOL
>> > interpretation   .... as you see it. Bo
>
> Andre:
>> Bodvar, as you know, I am still trying to understand your reasoning.
>> have a few simple question for you; 1) What do you understand by
>> 'intellect'?
>
> I understand it as THE VALUE OF THE SUBJECT/OBJECT
> DISTINCTION
>
> This (in the form of "the ability to distinguish between  ...etc.) is the
> original definition of the term "intellect", but has come to mean "the
> ability to to think" and this makes it difficult to grasp what the 4th. level.
> Pirsig himself has contributed to the confusion, in ZAMM the S/O split
> rightfully was called "intellect", but in the MOQ the said level is at times
> more like a mental, i.e. SOM's "mind".
>
>> ( I have told you that I have difficulty with this 'concept'. How does
>> it differ from 'intellectual pattern'? 2) Does it 'hold' these patterns
>> or are these patterns somehow 'outside' of it ít'?
>
> Intellect (the level) is a classification and "intellectual patterns" relate to
> the level like all other patterns to their respective levels. Inside
> outside? The MOQ is out of intellect so its classification process is
> valid at the MOQ too   ... like (the original social pattern) language was
> adapted by intellect and now used by the MOQ
>
>> 3) what makes you think it is 'static'? Do you mean 'static' as
>> immutable? unchanging? incapable of expanding ??
>
> DQ/SQ is MOQ's first axiom and Pirsig puts intellect at the top of the
> static hierarchy so intellect being static is plain. However the said
> "thinking intellect" is anything BUT static.
>
> The real 4th. level however developed as described in ZAMM as the
> quest for what's TRUE that automatically spawned its counterpoint
> "just ...apparent, seeming, fleeing, transient".  With Aristotle the true
> part had become "substance vs form" and here Pirsig says the modern
> scientific attitude was born. So you see the true/apparent (in
> moqspeak: objective/subjective) is 4th. level's master-pattern that has
> expanded beyond all imagination. It's difficult to see our present
> mind/matter dichotomy in the Greek search for eternal principles, but
> it's there.
>
>> Please remember that I suggested, for myself, the MoQ as a code of Art
>> making quality sense and I still feel very comfortable there, and also
>> that I feel very uncomfortable with the MoQ as an Intell. PoV cosily
>> beside the SOM as, similar Intell PoV (with their only quarrel being
>> that SOM doesn't acknowledge Quality) . I mean, you cannot sit beside
>> somebody (SOM) on friendly terms who completely denies your (MoQ)
>> existence!!
>
> Good point! The MOQ's relationship to itself is complicated, one way
> seen it is beyond intellect (the code of Art) because the MOQ is "out of
> SOM". Another way seen it is the DQ/SQ system itself and thus neither
> inside nor outside. I've tried to find valid comparisons (is Einstein's
> Relativity theory relative?) but as a metaphysics IS the reality it
> describes it kind of collapses. At least the 4th. level is a MOQ subset,
> thus the MOQ can't be an intellectual subset, that's for sure.
>
> Bodvar
>
>
>
>
>
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