[MD] In and out of intellect.

[Joseph Maurer]

On Thursday 11 December 2008 6:54 AM Mel writes to Bo/Joe:

Bo / Joe,
 
Sleep is not oblivion, but the things about
which, there is consciousness are not
the same as those in the 'wakeing' state.
 
What is disengaged is most of the creating
of memory, so most of what passes is not
remembered.
 
Consciousness is always consciousness of...
and when the 'of' consists of difference too
small to matter, then we blithely forget it and
move on.  What we choose to not remember is
as if it never existed.  It did, but not for the illusion
of 'I'.
 
Memory and the formation of memory give
us the texture and character in our lives, our
sense of 'who we are' and the knowledge we've
processed, but memory is just another matter
for consciousness to be conscious about.
 
Before reacting to this, try it on for a while and
see if it makes 'operational' sense.
 
thanks--mel
 
Hi Mel

One of the first rules in the study of esoteric literature as proposed by
Gurdjieff and Ouspensky it to ³remember yourself²!  A further argument is
that if you don¹t remember yourself, you are fast asleep to what you are
experiencing.  Is this the point you are making about sleep not being
oblivion?  

You are saying when asleep I cannot create new memory since I am an
illusion.  Some dreams I remember.  An analogy to sleep would apply to the
non-creating of memory in the so-called waking state.  Can I be conscious of
what I don¹t remember?  Are most of my activities done in a state akin to
sleep? Merely a mechanical repetition of what I had been aware of at a
different time?  I accept a conscious/mechanical metaphysical description
for my activities.  Am I only mechanically aware of what I do during the
day, so that it can be said that my activities are those of a sleep-walker?
I am impressed!

I lose track of you, when you say ³but memory is just another matter for
consciousness to be conscious about.²??????  For me consciousness is DQ in
the social order.

Joe 



On 12/11/08 6:54 AM, "ml" <mbtlehn at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Bo / Joe,
> 
> Sleep is not oblivion, but the things about
> which, there is consciousness are not
> the same as those in the 'wakeing' state.
> 
> What is disengaged is most of the creating
> of memory, so most of what passes is not
> remembered.
> 
> Consciousness is always consciousness of...
> and when the 'of' consists of difference too
> small to matter, then we blithely forget it and
> move on.   What we choose to not remember is
> as if it never existed.  It did, but not for the illusion
> of 'I'.
> 
> Memory and the formation of memory give
> us the texture and character in our lives, our
> sense of 'who we are' and the knowledge we've
> processed, but memory is just another matter
> for consciousness to be conscious about.
> 
> Before reacting to this, try it on for a while and
> see if it makes 'operational' sense.
> 
> thanks--mel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <skutvik at online.no>
> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] In and out of intellect.
> 
> 
> Hi Plumber Joe
> 
> 5 Dec. you responded to my my question:
> 
> Bo before:
>>> Almost all creatures sleep, thus when an animal wakes up it must be to a
>>> state different from oblivion. Is this state a weaker version of the
>>> human "selfconsciousness" (nineteenth century thinkers spoke about
>>> "slumber"). Animals are known for their alertness and do not slumber.
>>> Please address this issue before going on it seems to be much like
>>> Phaedrus' "hot stove" insight that obviously launched him om his
>>> Q-track, but no one seems to understand. I have tried the "sleep"
>>> question on a lot of people without receiving a single response.
> 
> Joe:
>> A wonderful question.  Does a rock sleep? It is worn smooth by the
>> brook. It is melted by volcanic action. It flies into space from
>> volcanic explosions. A rock sleeps underground, and is awakened by the
>> erosion in the riverbed. Sunlight warms it and makes it grow beyond
>> its boundaries.  Freezing water is irresistible and it splits.
> 
> I  thought it was a straightforward question, but you either didn't
> understand it or evaded it. Sleep is a biological phenomenon and -
> again - animals that sleep must necessarily wake up to a state
> different from oblivion, yet animals aren't supposed to "have"
> consciousness so what is the state they wake up to? IMO this wrecks
> SOM's most pompous concept consciousness.
> 
>> Sleep is a state of being.  My bones are awake while my consciousness
>> sleeps!
> 
> But what kind of consciousness is it that shuts down when a dog or a
> bird or a fish fall asleep? This is what it's about. Only humans are
> supposed to be (have) consciousness - at least the "hey, I am a
> human being" type -  but can there be an unconscious consciousness?
> It's here that the MOQ supplies an answer by introducing "value
> perception" instead of the consciousness hoax.
> 
>> Does a single cell have different functions?  Conscious cells sleep and
>> re-supply their energy base in order to operate at full capacity.  What
>> if they haven¹t been trained in how to operate?  Then, they know only
>> sleep or awake!  Nothing in between, like when to rest for a greater
>> challenge.
> 
> Your deliberations may be valid, but a bit off regarding my question  so
> I leave it here in the hope that you will be a bit more to the point .... if
> you care to pursue the issue that is?.
> 
> 
> Bo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/