[MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy

[Andre Broersen]

Bodvar:

Right, DQ/SQ it is and had Pirsig stuck to that and not at times let it
become a "Quality slash DQ/SQ" division all would have been fine.

Andre,
Ni Hao Bodvar, just want to dubble check with you: Pirsig slices Reality up
into DQ/SQ i.e. DQ and Static Quality (SQ being subjects and objects 'fused'
into patterns).Where does Pirsig go: Quality/DQ/SQ (as though he suggests a
division between quality and DQ/SQ??????). Or am I misunderstanding?

Bodvar:
At the social - intellectual stage DQ was "pre-intellectual", at the
biological - social stage it was "pre-social" and so on downwards.

Andre:
Dui! (this means I agree...you are correct...pronounced: 'dwey'). It means a
different way of responding to DQ. To pre- suppose that DQ can only be
responded to on a pre- intellectual level is misguided...there are other
ways as I have tried to convey in other posts)

Bodvar:

A most precise observation. Even if I say that intellect is the value of
the S/O distinction it is from the premises of this being a mere static
split going to a certain depth and then merging with social value, which
in its turn merges with biology ..etc.

Andre:
Not sure how to react to this Bodvar. Give me more time.

Bodvar:

As you may have noticed I keep alternating between the S/O
distinction and S/O aggregate, the S/O RESOLUTION may be a useful
variety.

Andre:
Frustrating how one may mean the same thing but not really understanding one
another because of the use of different words (within the same language!!)

Bodvar:

A minor objection. The S/O isn't really  recognized by the social level
(no level recognizes any "movement" above itself)  it is intellect that
has suppressed social values to the degree of dominating the social
pattern we call  "society".

Andre:

Good point. Thank you.But at the intellectual level??? Intellect surely is
capable of recognising what it, itself, is doing thereby recognising
'suppressed social values' and its own (intellectual) shortcomings?

I see this ability as evolution's biggest advance and Pirsig 'realised' it.

Bodvar:

The Brujo story was how the Brujo SOCIAL patterns were changed,
but this is such a major issue so let's return to it ... some time

Andre:

I grabbed this story to show how Pirsig changes INTELLECTUAL patterns.See my
note above.

Bodvar:

Wish you hadn't written this, all what went before this looked like you
saw  the S/O (aggregate, resolution ..whatever) as MOQ's 4 th. level,
but this talk about SOM and MOQ co-existing kind of undermined it.
There is no SOM inside the MOQ, only the value of the S/O dualism,

Andre:

Thought you wouldn't like this Bodvar but as you describe intellect as being
'the highest static morality' (above) and this morality being the S/O
distinction......................where do we go? We cannot plant another
'level' above the intellectual level. That's the code of art 'region'.
Problem Bodvar is that I do see the S/O resolution as MoQ's 4th level...but
without the SOM/S/O distinction. Given Pirsig's re-definitions and re-
workings of some of SOM's most important principles for me (ohhh big
statement:) SOM does not exist anymore...it is superseded by the MoQ and the
intellectual level is MoQ 'inspired' they are patterns of value, no
distinctions, just opportunities at merging. I'm sorry, I do not know any
other way to express this.
That's why I have difficulty when you say that intellect is the value of S/O
distinction. Pirsig has 'resolved' this but must give you your dues and say
that he is sometimes giving off contradictory signals...and this is
disturbing and off putting. But give him his dues...like a true Zen teacher.
I mean...suppose he would have given us an airtight and waterproof MoQ??
It would have become a religion. And that is NOT what we want!

> This is perhaps where the Code of Art comes in. For SOM this means MoQ
> (GOOD) quality testing/ for the MoQ this means scientifically (TRUTH)
> quality testing. Pure and simple. This may assist the combining process
> of science/mysticism continuing their evolutionary process: i.e.DQ/SQ
This perhaps nullified the nullification if I were sure what you say.

Andre:
What is unclear?

Bodvar:

No bashing at all, I hereby appoint you my lieutenant. Little pay and
long hours regrettably.

Andre:

Bodvar, I am very tired now, but can not think of any other activity I'd
rather do than being engaged in and be stimulated by Pirsig's MoQ and this
Discuss.
It's a bit like my work, long hours and effort I put in this College ( with
both colleagues and students) here in China. The pay is lousy (local level)
but the rewards!!!!!!! (what are 60 smiling faces worth in dollars/euro's
each morning when you walk into class??) never to be recompensed in monetary
terms.This is where the Western social and intellectual developments have
gone completely haywire and divorced from eachother. Such a shame. If only a
combination were possible...but that is, among other things ,  what we are
working on here on this Discuss and Pirsig with his MoQ. Bless the man!

Will get back on the earlier part of your post.
For now: zaijian.
Andre