[MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.

Tue Dec 16 11:45:27 PST 2008

Ron,

Holy Orpheus!  I don't like the Christian version of the story.  It 
was stolen and I don't see the quality.  It was all politics.

Marsha

At 02:37 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
>Marsha,
>I agree, the stupidity and close-mindedness of dogma
>is nothing to support. That is not why I wish to discuss
>it. I wish to discuss how and why , what seems like
>a Quality movement of resolving differences turned into
>the very thing it was opposed to.
>
>In this spirit I wish to highlight this aspect in our own
>quality movement. If we take heed of how Quality
>movements in the past have been distorted by being
>universalized perhaps we may avoid this in our own
>endeavors.
>
>-Ron
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:24:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
>
>
>Great tradition, "a serious and effective system of morality without
>bothering to provide it with a rational basis."
>
>A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one
>man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)
>
>B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines
>in  addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)
>
>C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is
>a  virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)
>
>D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be
>forbidden.  (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
>
>E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
>constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be
>construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
>
>F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry
>the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately
>does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be
>otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10;
>Deut 25:5-10)
>
>G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town,
>it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him
>(even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young
>and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this
>rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 01:30 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > >[Ron]
> > >The original christian movement was a Quality movement but it became
> > >dominated by the universal good once again and once again western
> > >civilazation became seperated.
> >
> >Marsha
> >How do you know this?
> >
> >[Ron]
> >Lots of reading Greek philosophy and tracing the historical origins
> >of the early christian church, reading the new testament after reading
> >greek philosophy  allows one to see the paralells. Because of how
> >it is worded (translations kept in mind) I question if an actual Jesus
> >did exist, It does say that he was the word made flesh. The universal
> >made particular..
> >But you are aware, that we "know" nothing, we derrive meaning from patterns.
> >
> >[Krimel]
> >I see no reason to doubt the existence of a historical Jesus. Our evidence
> >for his existence is at least as compelling as our evidence for any other
> >historical figure from that time period or before including Socrates and
> >certainly any of the pre-Socratics.
> >
> >It may be true that the early Christian church was influenced by the Greeks,
> >but for Jesus himself and for his earliest followers the influence was
> >almost entirely negative. Jesus was Jewish and his teachings are for and
> >about Jews. Many of the Jews of Jesus time had been Hellenized; Paul is a
> >good example of this. This point is well illustrated by the practice of
> >epispasm. This was an operation or a technique for reversing circumcision.
> >It was practiced because, "Hellenistic and Roman societies widely practiced
> >public nakedness. But they abhorred baring the tip of the penis, called the
> >glans. To expose the glans was considered vulgarly humorous, indecent or
> >both." (http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/hall1/) As a result, to
> >preserve their social status, some Hellenistic Jews sought to reverse the
> >process.
> >
> >For conservative Jews this kind of appeasement to the conquerors both Greek
> >and Roman was blasphemy. The adoption of Hellenistic practices was to be
> >condemned. An illustration for this point can be found in Jesus' famous
> >saying, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the
> >things that are God's" While most today hear this as a call for obedience,
> >it is unlikely that the Jews of the day heard it that way. Jesus says this
> >after noting that the face of Caesar is on a coin. Those Roman coins were
> >bad news to the Jews. They could not be used as offerings in the Temple for
> >instance, which let to a brisk trade in money exchange where roman coins
> >were traded for Temple coinage to be used as sacrifice or tithes. The land
> >and the fruits of the land on the other hand belonged to God. Jesus was not
> >advocating accommodation to Roman occupation or Greek culture. Rather he was
> >saying quite the opposite. Furthermore, it was his violent encounter with
> >the "money changers" at the Temple that ultimately led to his execution for
> >sedition.
> >
> >The early Christian church on the other hand was quite a different story.
> >The Church evolved out of the Gentile ministry of Paul. Here Paul was
> >seeking to convert non-Jews into the faith. To do so he had to appeal to the
> >Hellenistic understanding and to reject certain specifically Jewish
> >practices including Jewish dietary laws and especially circumcision. It is
> >clear in the New Testament that Paul was at odds with Jesus disciples in
> >this respect. In Galatians Paul basically cusses out James the Brother of
> >Jesus, John and Peter for their adherence to Jewish law. In Acts those same
> >disciples are the ones that threaten to execute Paul, forcing him to appeal
> >to the Roman authorities.
> >
> >The real question for me has always been: what did those in the Hellenistic
> >world see in Judiasm/Christianity that drew them to it. Elaine Pagels makes
> >the case that it was the strict moral code of the Jews. In a time of
> >promiscuity and excess there was an attraction to faithfulness both
> >spiritual and sexual. I take this to indicate that while the Greeks had
> >applied reason to science, mathematics and a host of other areas, they like
> >later philosophers, including Pirsig, in my view, failed utterly to provide
> >a reasoned underpinning for morality.
> >
> >The Jews on the other hand developed a serious and effective system of
> >morality without bothering to provide it with a rational basis. It worked
> >and it continues to work. Jewish morality works because it evolved over a
> >period of more than 1000 years before Christ and has continued as an organic
> >living and lived system in the 2000 years since. It requires no intellectual
> >underpinning.
> >
> >This split between the orthodox Jewish followers of Jesus and what became
> >the Christian church can be seen in layers throughout the New 
> Testament.. The
> >notion of a God/Man for instance was not just absent from the Jewish
> >tradition it was regarded as blasphemy. In contrast the Greek gods were a
> >randy bunch, mating with human women every chance they could.
> >
> >In short the relationship between Jewish and Hellenistic thought is very
> >complex.
> >
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>.
>.
>
>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>.
>.
>
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.
.

Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
. 