[MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.

Tue Dec 16 12:03:12 PST 2008

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

At 02:58 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
>Marsha,
>Orpheus, Hercules and Osiris!
>the story of Hercules is almost exactly the story of jesus. But, I 
>can understand
>why you would dislike it, I dislike those aspects too. But the bhudda rests
>as comforably within the bowels of christianity as he does within a 
>pile of rubbish.
>
>-Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:45:27 PM
>Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
>
>
>Ron,
>
>Holy Orpheus!  I don't like the Christian version of the story.  It
>was stolen and I don't see the quality.  It was all politics.
>
>
>Marsha
>
>
>
>
>At 02:37 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> >Marsha,
> >I agree, the stupidity and close-mindedness of dogma
> >is nothing to support. That is not why I wish to discuss
> >it. I wish to discuss how and why , what seems like
> >a Quality movement of resolving differences turned into
> >the very thing it was opposed to.
> >
> >In this spirit I wish to highlight this aspect in our own
> >quality movement. If we take heed of how Quality
> >movements in the past have been distorted by being
> >universalized perhaps we may avoid this in our own
> >endeavors.
> >
> >-Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:24:22 PM
> >Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
> >
> >
> >Great tradition, "a serious and effective system of morality without
> >bothering to provide it with a rational basis."
> >
> >A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one
> >man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)
> >
> >B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines
> >in  addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II 
> Chron 11:21)
> >
> >C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is
> >a  virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. 
> (Deut 22:13-21)
> >
> >D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be
> >forbidden.  (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
> >
> >E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
> >constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be
> >construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
> >
> >F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry
> >the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately
> >does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be
> >otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10;
> >Deut 25:5-10)
> >
> >G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town,
> >it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him
> >(even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young
> >and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this
> >rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >At 01:30 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > > >[Ron]
> > > >The original christian movement was a Quality movement but it became
> > > >dominated by the universal good once again and once again western
> > > >civilazation became seperated.
> > >
> > >Marsha
> > >How do you know this?
> > >
> > >[Ron]
> > >Lots of reading Greek philosophy and tracing the historical origins
> > >of the early christian church, reading the new testament after reading
> > >greek philosophy  allows one to see the paralells. Because of how
> > >it is worded (translations kept in mind) I question if an actual Jesus
> > >did exist, It does say that he was the word made flesh. The universal
> > >made particular..
> > >But you are aware, that we "know" nothing, we derrive meaning 
> from patterns..
> > >
> > >[Krimel]
> > >I see no reason to doubt the existence of a historical Jesus. Our evidence
> > >for his existence is at least as compelling as our evidence for any other
> > >historical figure from that time period or before including Socrates and
> > >certainly any of the pre-Socratics.
> > >
> > >It may be true that the early Christian church was influenced by 
> the Greeks,
> > >but for Jesus himself and for his earliest followers the influence was
> > >almost entirely negative. Jesus was Jewish and his teachings are for and
> > >about Jews. Many of the Jews of Jesus time had been Hellenized; Paul is a
> > >good example of this. This point is well illustrated by the practice of
> > >epispasm. This was an operation or a technique for reversing circumcision.
> > >It was practiced because, "Hellenistic and Roman societies 
> widely practiced
> > >public nakedness. But they abhorred baring the tip of the penis, 
> called the
> > >glans. To expose the glans was considered vulgarly humorous, indecent or
> > >both." (http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/hall1/) As a result, to
> > >preserve their social status, some Hellenistic Jews sought to reverse the
> > >process.
> > >
> > >For conservative Jews this kind of appeasement to the conquerors 
> both Greek
> > >and Roman was blasphemy. The adoption of Hellenistic practices was to be
> > >condemned. An illustration for this point can be found in Jesus' famous
> > >saying, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the
> > >things that are God's" While most today hear this as a call for obedience,
> > >it is unlikely that the Jews of the day heard it that way.. 
> Jesus says this
> > >after noting that the face of Caesar is on a coin. Those Roman coins were
> > >bad news to the Jews. They could not be used as offerings in the 
> Temple for
> > >instance, which let to a brisk trade in money exchange where roman coins
> > >were traded for Temple coinage to be used as sacrifice or tithes. The land
> > >and the fruits of the land on the other hand belonged to God. 
> Jesus was not
> > >advocating accommodation to Roman occupation or Greek culture. 
> Rather he was
> > >saying quite the opposite. Furthermore, it was his violent encounter with
> > >the "money changers" at the Temple that ultimately led to his 
> execution for
> > >sedition.
> > >
> > >The early Christian church on the other hand was quite a different story.
> > >The Church evolved out of the Gentile ministry of Paul. Here Paul was
> > >seeking to convert non-Jews into the faith. To do so he had to 
> appeal to the
> > >Hellenistic understanding and to reject certain specifically Jewish
> > >practices including Jewish dietary laws and especially circumcision. It is
> > >clear in the New Testament that Paul was at odds with Jesus disciples in
> > >this respect. In Galatians Paul basically cusses out James the Brother of
> > >Jesus, John and Peter for their adherence to Jewish law. In Acts 
> those same
> > >disciples are the ones that threaten to execute Paul, forcing 
> him to appeal
> > >to the Roman authorities.
> > >
> > >The real question for me has always been: what did those in the 
> Hellenistic
> > >world see in Judiasm/Christianity that drew them to it. Elaine 
> Pagels makes
> > >the case that it was the strict moral code of the Jews. In a time of
> > >promiscuity and excess there was an attraction to faithfulness both
> > >spiritual and sexual. I take this to indicate that while the Greeks had
> > >applied reason to science, mathematics and a host of other 
> areas, they like
> > >later philosophers, including Pirsig, in my view, failed utterly 
> to provide
> > >a reasoned underpinning for morality.
> > >
> > >The Jews on the other hand developed a serious and effective system of
> > >morality without bothering to provide it with a rational basis. It worked
> > >and it continues to work. Jewish morality works because it evolved over a
> > >period of more than 1000 years before Christ and has continued 
> as an organic
> > >living and lived system in the 2000 years since. It requires no 
> intellectual
> > >underpinning.
> > >
> > >This split between the orthodox Jewish followers of Jesus and what became
> > >the Christian church can be seen in layers throughout the New
> > Testament.. The
> > >notion of a God/Man for instance was not just absent from the Jewish
> > >tradition it was regarded as blasphemy. In contrast the Greek gods were a
> > >randy bunch, mating with human women every chance they could.
> > >
> > >In short the relationship between Jewish and Hellenistic thought is very
> > >complex.
> > >
> > >Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >
> >.
> >.
> >
> >Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars..........
> >.
> >.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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>.
>.
>
>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>.
>.
>
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.
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Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
. 