[MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.

Tue Dec 16 21:26:31 PST 2008

At 04:04 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
>Marsha,
>I enjoy the story of Osiris and Isis, it has always fascinated me..
>Talk about divining life from death.
>My main point is placing
>Greek rationialism with Christianity. but since you ask, I feel
>that pacifism, non-judgement, forgivness, charity and unconditional love
>are a few christian ideals I find to be Quality ideals. The
>ideal of the good, Arete, excellence.

Ron,

You are quite a comedian.

Marsha

>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:11:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
>
>
>Ron,
>
>Why don't you explain the high quality aspects of Christianity.
>
>And it's the story of Isis that interests me.  She put Osiris back 
>together and then bore him a son.
>
>hhhssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
>
>Marsha
>
>
>
>At 02:58 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > Marsha,
> > Orpheus, Hercules and Osiris!
> > the story of Hercules is almost exactly the story of jesus. But, 
> I can understand
> > why you would dislike it, I dislike those aspects too. But the bhudda rests
> > as comforably within the bowels of christianity as he does within 
> a pile of rubbish.
> >
> > -Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:45:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
> >
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > Holy Orpheus!  I don't like the Christian version of the story.  It
> > was stolen and I don't see the quality.  It was all politics.
> >
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 02:37 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > >Marsha,
> > >I agree, the stupidity and close-mindedness of dogma
> > >is nothing to support. That is not why I wish to discuss
> > >it. I wish to discuss how and why , what seems like
> > >a Quality movement of resolving differences turned into
> > >the very thing it was opposed to.
> > >
> > >In this spirit I wish to highlight this aspect in our own
> > >quality movement. If we take heed of how Quality
> > >movements in the past have been distorted by being
> > >universalized perhaps we may avoid this in our own
> > >endeavors.
> > >
> > >-Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:24:22 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
> > >
> > >
> > >Great tradition, "a serious and effective system of morality without
> > >bothering to provide it with a rational basis."
> > >
> > >A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one
> > >man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)
> > >
> > >B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines
> > >in  addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; 
> II Chron 11:21)
> > >
> > >C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is
> > >a  virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. 
> (Deut 22:13-21)
> > >
> > >D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be
> > >forbidden.  (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
> > >
> > >E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
> > >constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be
> > >construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
> > >
> > >F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry
> > >the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately
> > >does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be
> > >otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10;
> > >Deut 25:5-10)
> > >
> > >G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town,
> > >it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him
> > >(even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young
> > >and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this
> > >rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 01:30 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > > > >[Ron]
> > > > >The original christian movement was a Quality movement but it became
> > > > >dominated by the universal good once again and once again western
> > > > >civilazation became seperated.
> > > >
> > > >Marsha
> > > >How do you know this?
> > > >
> > > >[Ron]
> > > >Lots of reading Greek philosophy and tracing the historical origins
> > > >of the early christian church, reading the new testament after reading
> > > >greek philosophy  allows one to see the paralells. Because of how
> > > >it is worded (translations kept in mind) I question if an actual Jesus
> > > >did exist, It does say that he was the word made flesh. The universal
> > > >made particular..
> > > >But you are aware, that we "know" nothing, we derrive meaning 
> from patterns..
> > > >
> > > >[Krimel]
> > > >I see no reason to doubt the existence of a historical Jesus. 
> Our evidence
> > > >for his existence is at least as compelling as our evidence 
> for any other
> > > >historical figure from that time period or before including Socrates and
> > > >certainly any of the pre-Socratics.
> > > >
> > > >It may be true that the early Christian church was influenced 
> by the Greeks,
> > > >but for Jesus himself and for his earliest followers the influence was
> > > >almost entirely negative. Jesus was Jewish and his teachings are for and
> > > >about Jews. Many of the Jews of Jesus time had been 
> Hellenized; Paul is a
> > > >good example of this. This point is well illustrated by the practice of
> > > >epispasm. This was an operation or a technique for reversing 
> circumcision.
> > > >It was practiced because, "Hellenistic and Roman societies 
> widely practiced
> > > >public nakedness. But they abhorred baring the tip of the 
> penis, called the
> > > >glans. To expose the glans was considered vulgarly humorous, indecent or
> > > >both." (http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/hall1/) As a result, to
> > > >preserve their social status, some Hellenistic Jews sought to 
> reverse the
> > > >process.
> > > >
> > > >For conservative Jews this kind of appeasement to the 
> conquerors both Greek
> > > >and Roman was blasphemy. The adoption of Hellenistic practices was to be
> > > >condemned. An illustration for this point can be found in Jesus' famous
> > > >saying, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the
> > > >things that are God's" While most today hear this as a call 
> for obedience,
> > > >it is unlikely that the Jews of the day heard it that way.. 
> Jesus says this
> > > >after noting that the face of Caesar is on a coin. Those Roman 
> coins were
> > > >bad news to the Jews. They could not be used as offerings in 
> the Temple for
> > > >instance, which let to a brisk trade in money exchange where roman coins
> > > >were traded for Temple coinage to be used as sacrifice or 
> tithes. The land
> > > >and the fruits of the land on the other hand belonged to God. 
> Jesus was not
> > > >advocating accommodation to Roman occupation or Greek culture. 
> Rather he was
> > > >saying quite the opposite. Furthermore, it was his violent 
> encounter with
> > > >the "money changers" at the Temple that ultimately led to his 
> execution for
> > > >sedition.
> > > >
> > > >The early Christian church on the other hand was quite a 
> different story.
> > > >The Church evolved out of the Gentile ministry of Paul. Here Paul was
> > > >seeking to convert non-Jews into the faith. To do so he had to 
> appeal to the
> > > >Hellenistic understanding and to reject certain specifically Jewish
> > > >practices including Jewish dietary laws and especially 
> circumcision. It is
> > > >clear in the New Testament that Paul was at odds with Jesus disciples in
> > > >this respect. In Galatians Paul basically cusses out James the 
> Brother of
> > > >Jesus, John and Peter for their adherence to Jewish law. In 
> Acts those same
> > > >disciples are the ones that threaten to execute Paul, forcing 
> him to appeal
> > > >to the Roman authorities.
> > > >
> > > >The real question for me has always been: what did those in 
> the Hellenistic
> > > >world see in Judiasm/Christianity that drew them to it. Elaine 
> Pagels makes
> > > >the case that it was the strict moral code of the Jews. In a time of
> > > >promiscuity and excess there was an attraction to faithfulness both
> > > >spiritual and sexual. I take this to indicate that while the Greeks had
> > > >applied reason to science, mathematics and a host of other 
> areas, they like
> > > >later philosophers, including Pirsig, in my view, failed 
> utterly to provide
> > > >a reasoned underpinning for morality.
> > > >
> > > >The Jews on the other hand developed a serious and effective system of
> > > >morality without bothering to provide it with a rational 
> basis. It worked
> > > >and it continues to work. Jewish morality works because it 
> evolved over a
> > > >period of more than 1000 years before Christ and has continued 
> as an organic
> > > >living and lived system in the 2000 years since. It requires 
> no intellectual
> > > >underpinning.
> > > >
> > > >This split between the orthodox Jewish followers of Jesus and 
> what became
> > > >the Christian church can be seen in layers throughout the New
> > > Testament.. The
> > > >notion of a God/Man for instance was not just absent from the Jewish
> > > >tradition it was regarded as blasphemy. In contrast the Greek 
> gods were a
> > > >randy bunch, mating with human women every chance they could.
> > > >
> > > >In short the relationship between Jewish and Hellenistic thought is very
> > > >complex.
> > > >
> > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > >
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
> > >Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
> stars...........
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> > .
> > .
> >
> > Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
> stars..........
> > .
> > .
> >
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>.
>.
>
>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>.
>.
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.
.

Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
. 