[MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
MarshaV
marshalz at charter.net
Tue Dec 16 21:27:43 PST 2008
At 12:09 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote:
>Marsha,
>
>Pardon me for stepping in, but as I see
>it, the greatest innovation at the time was
>the teaching of forgiveness, which was
>neither a common Jewish nor Pagan
>practice. Sometimes it's not too common
>now...but that failure is ours.
>
>Also there was, compared to the practices
>of the time, a new idea of dignity in mankind
>that can be traced through Christian writings
>and thought down to modern day. A dignity
>that put the humanity in humanism and
>reduces the drastic differences in class
>that had grown in earlier social systems.
>
>Regardless of one's stand on "church,"
>this current of thought is a part of out
>history.
>
>thanks--mel
Mel,
And this is not even a legitimate story, it is a fairytale.
Marsha
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "MarshaV" <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
>
>
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > Why don't you explain the high quality aspects of Christianity.
> >
> > And it's the story of Isis that interests me. She put Osiris back
> > together and then bore him a son.
> >
> > hhhssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> > At 02:58 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > >Marsha,
> > >Orpheus, Hercules and Osiris!
> > >the story of Hercules is almost exactly the story of jesus. But, I
> > >can understand
> > >why you would dislike it, I dislike those aspects too. But the bhudda
>rests
> > >as comforably within the bowels of christianity as he does within a
> > >pile of rubbish.
> > >
> > >-Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:45:27 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
> > >
> > >
> > >Ron,
> > >
> > >Holy Orpheus! I don't like the Christian version of the story. It
> > >was stolen and I don't see the quality. It was all politics.
> > >
> > >
> > >Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 02:37 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > > >Marsha,
> > > >I agree, the stupidity and close-mindedness of dogma
> > > >is nothing to support. That is not why I wish to discuss
> > > >it. I wish to discuss how and why , what seems like
> > > >a Quality movement of resolving differences turned into
> > > >the very thing it was opposed to.
> > > >
> > > >In this spirit I wish to highlight this aspect in our own
> > > >quality movement. If we take heed of how Quality
> > > >movements in the past have been distorted by being
> > > >universalized perhaps we may avoid this in our own
> > > >endeavors.
> > > >
> > > >-Ron
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >________________________________
> > > >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:24:22 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [MD] The SOM/MOQ discrepancy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Great tradition, "a serious and effective system of morality without
> > > >bothering to provide it with a rational basis."
> > > >
> > > >A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one
> > > >man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)
> > > >
> > > >B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines
> > > >in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II
> > > Chron 11:21)
> > > >
> > > >C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is
> > > >a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed.
> > > (Deut 22:13-21)
> > > >
> > > >D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be
> > > >forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
> > > >
> > > >E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
> > > >constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be
> > > >construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
> > > >
> > > >F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry
> > > >the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately
> > > >does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be
> > > >otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10;
> > > >Deut 25:5-10)
> > > >
> > > >G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town,
> > > >it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him
> > > >(even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young
> > > >and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this
> > > >rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >At 01:30 PM 12/16/2008, you wrote:
> > > > > >[Ron]
> > > > > >The original christian movement was a Quality movement but it
>became
> > > > > >dominated by the universal good once again and once again western
> > > > > >civilazation became seperated.
> > > > >
> > > > >Marsha
> > > > >How do you know this?
> > > > >
> > > > >[Ron]
> > > > >Lots of reading Greek philosophy and tracing the historical origins
> > > > >of the early christian church, reading the new testament after
>reading
> > > > >greek philosophy allows one to see the paralells. Because of how
> > > > >it is worded (translations kept in mind) I question if an actual
>Jesus
> > > > >did exist, It does say that he was the word made flesh. The universal
> > > > >made particular..
> > > > >But you are aware, that we "know" nothing, we derrive meaning
> > > from patterns..
> > > > >
> > > > >[Krimel]
> > > > >I see no reason to doubt the existence of a historical Jesus. Our
>evidence
> > > > >for his existence is at least as compelling as our evidence for any
>other
> > > > >historical figure from that time period or before including Socrates
>and
> > > > >certainly any of the pre-Socratics.
> > > > >
> > > > >It may be true that the early Christian church was influenced by
> > > the Greeks,
> > > > >but for Jesus himself and for his earliest followers the influence
>was
> > > > >almost entirely negative. Jesus was Jewish and his teachings are for
>and
> > > > >about Jews. Many of the Jews of Jesus time had been Hellenized; Paul
>is a
> > > > >good example of this. This point is well illustrated by the practice
>of
> > > > >epispasm. This was an operation or a technique for reversing
>circumcision.
> > > > >It was practiced because, "Hellenistic and Roman societies
> > > widely practiced
> > > > >public nakedness. But they abhorred baring the tip of the penis,
> > > called the
> > > > >glans. To expose the glans was considered vulgarly humorous, indecent
>or
> > > > >both." (http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/hall1/) As a result,
>to
> > > > >preserve their social status, some Hellenistic Jews sought to reverse
>the
> > > > >process.
> > > > >
> > > > >For conservative Jews this kind of appeasement to the conquerors
> > > both Greek
> > > > >and Roman was blasphemy. The adoption of Hellenistic practices was to
>be
> > > > >condemned. An illustration for this point can be found in Jesus'
>famous
> > > > >saying, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God
>the
> > > > >things that are God's" While most today hear this as a call for
>obedience,
> > > > >it is unlikely that the Jews of the day heard it that way..
> > > Jesus says this
> > > > >after noting that the face of Caesar is on a coin. Those Roman coins
>were
> > > > >bad news to the Jews. They could not be used as offerings in the
> > > Temple for
> > > > >instance, which let to a brisk trade in money exchange where roman
>coins
> > > > >were traded for Temple coinage to be used as sacrifice or tithes. The
>land
> > > > >and the fruits of the land on the other hand belonged to God.
> > > Jesus was not
> > > > >advocating accommodation to Roman occupation or Greek culture.
> > > Rather he was
> > > > >saying quite the opposite. Furthermore, it was his violent encounter
>with
> > > > >the "money changers" at the Temple that ultimately led to his
> > > execution for
> > > > >sedition.
> > > > >
> > > > >The early Christian church on the other hand was quite a different
>story.
> > > > >The Church evolved out of the Gentile ministry of Paul. Here Paul was
> > > > >seeking to convert non-Jews into the faith. To do so he had to
> > > appeal to the
> > > > >Hellenistic understanding and to reject certain specifically Jewish
> > > > >practices including Jewish dietary laws and especially circumcision.
>It is
> > > > >clear in the New Testament that Paul was at odds with Jesus disciples
>in
> > > > >this respect. In Galatians Paul basically cusses out James the
>Brother of
> > > > >Jesus, John and Peter for their adherence to Jewish law. In Acts
> > > those same
> > > > >disciples are the ones that threaten to execute Paul, forcing
> > > him to appeal
> > > > >to the Roman authorities.
> > > > >
> > > > >The real question for me has always been: what did those in the
> > > Hellenistic
> > > > >world see in Judiasm/Christianity that drew them to it. Elaine
> > > Pagels makes
> > > > >the case that it was the strict moral code of the Jews. In a time of
> > > > >promiscuity and excess there was an attraction to faithfulness both
> > > > >spiritual and sexual. I take this to indicate that while the Greeks
>had
> > > > >applied reason to science, mathematics and a host of other
> > > areas, they like
> > > > >later philosophers, including Pirsig, in my view, failed utterly
> > > to provide
> > > > >a reasoned underpinning for morality.
> > > > >
> > > > >The Jews on the other hand developed a serious and effective system
>of
> > > > >morality without bothering to provide it with a rational basis. It
>worked
> > > > >and it continues to work. Jewish morality works because it evolved
>over a
> > > > >period of more than 1000 years before Christ and has continued
> > > as an organic
> > > > >living and lived system in the 2000 years since. It requires no
> > > intellectual
> > > > >underpinning.
> > > > >
> > > > >This split between the orthodox Jewish followers of Jesus and what
>became
> > > > >the Christian church can be seen in layers throughout the New
> > > > Testament.. The
> > > > >notion of a God/Man for instance was not just absent from the Jewish
> > > > >tradition it was regarded as blasphemy. In contrast the Greek gods
>were a
> > > > >randy bunch, mating with human women every chance they could.
> > > > >
> > > > >In short the relationship between Jewish and Hellenistic thought is
>very
> > > > >complex.
> > > > >
> > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > >
> > > >.
> > > >.
> > > >
> > > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>stars..........
> > > >.
> > > >.
> > > >
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> > >
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
> > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>stars.........
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
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> >
> > .
> > .
> >
> > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>stars.........
> > .
> > .
> >
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Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
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