[MD] Consciousness

[skutvik at online.no]

BO calling KO

Mon Dec. 

Bo before:
> > Consciousness is a "unassimiled" concept like Beauty, Intuition,
> > Essence and Aesthetics (Art), out of each a MOQ-like metaphysics
> > may have been constructed.

KO:
> Nice idea Bo, but i am not sure about: consciousness is an
> unassimilated concept. You mean by 'unassimilted' that it is not
> directly from impressions?

Much can be said here, but I repeat that there are some grand 
concepts besides Quality that are all or nothing at all. Take "language", 
one way seen nothing exists outside it, even trying to point out non-
linguistic realities is conveyed by language. This goes for 
"consciousness" as well, without it there's nothing at all, so my 
assertion still isl that one must find their places inside the  MOQ or 
similar metaphysics (to the MOQ) can be built on them,.

> I see consciousness as a feeling i get when i say 'I'; Consciousness
> is subjectivity. It is very much affected by brain acitivity. There are
> different states of consciousness including states when the sense of
> self diminishes, like when engaged in creative activities. 

Yes, when examined all these limitations, but THE HOLY 
CONSCIOUSNESS is not supposed to have stages or being 
diminished. it's an absolute.      

Bo before:
> > In consciousness case the first axiom is
> > "Consciousness=Reality", then Dynamic/Static Consciousness and the
> > known static consciousness levels.

> No cant agree: reality includes everything there is at this moment.
> Consciousness is it's content and that content does not include
> everything. A rock has no sense of self. Don't you agree?

May we shift to "awareness"? 

An example of a Metaphysics of Awareness (MOA) is based on 
awareness as reality's ground and this awareness is not part of 
humankind or its brain, it's  like Pirsig's Quality which (he claims) is 
something beyond humankind, thus it's not a question about self-
aware rocks, but awareness OF rocks. The first stage of this MOA is 
static inorganic awareness. 

You understand if compared to the MOQ where a rock isn't substance 
WITH quality, but "static inorganic quality", likewise the rock (in a 
MOA) isn't substance WITH awareness but "static inorganic 
awareness". This was just an example of how MOQ copies can can be 
made, but Pirsig's original MOQ is best, let that be said.        

KO:
> Take the clause mentioning consciousness out and i agree.

>From my lectures above you may understand? Like the MOQ 
postulates a disembodied Quality, a MOA postulates a disembodied 
Awareness without any connection to man, brain or anything. If you 
protest this you may as well protest Pirsig's Quality, there obviously is 
no quality without a human being to decide what's good. And in that 
case we have MAN as realitys ground, and a Metaphysics of Man 
(MOM) is called for ... and if a copy of the MOQ - fine! It's the 
dynamic/static divide plus static levels - that counts.

An aside: In ZAMM Pirsig actually started on a metaphysics with Man 
(the Measure of all things) as realitys ground and I believe it's here that 
Ham still is.

KO:
> > > The individual has its place because that is the vehicle, the state of
> > > the art; there is no consciousness inside of it however; only a
> > > wonderful projection that by convention we call self consciousness.

Bo 
> > Sounds like we agree KO, at least as I see it "the individual" as
> > carrier of consciousness is intellect's invention.

KO: 
> No, cannot agree: consciousness is not only intellects invention, there is
> the social component also. We can be conscious of a thought about a
> religious ceremony; the brain informs memory and memory is a component of
> consciousness. When people say they are conscious they refer by consensus
> to a mental image and so for me the domain of consciousness is the whole
> of mind including both intellectual and social; sorry to disappoint you.

Don't you see that it's intellect that looks down on the social level and 
sees this about "being aware about a religious thought"?. The religious 
ceremony itself is not about being aware about being aware, it's about 
getting in touch with the "X" that governs existence. Likewise 
everything about memory, mental images, brain ...etc. is intellect's 
business so my assertion still stands: Awareness (inside the MOQ that 
is!)  is intellect's "invention". If removed from the MOQ it's the 
candidate for a MOA.       

Merry Christmas to you Kieffer.

Bo