[MD] MOQ Levels

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

God Eftermiddag Magnus!

Cris:
>> Here is your real mistake. From each level the world/everything/allting 
>> etc
>> is reality, it's all there is.
>
Magnus:
> Nah, I would say the world from each level is patterns of that level and 
> below.

Det är klart att de är - ur ett MOQ perspektiv! Inte ur något annat, eller 
hur?


>> What's more, from a MOQ perspective, with a SOL definition I find that
>> *everything* falls into place. It really does.

> Ok, if you're too lazy to go out and look at the world, at least read my 
> essay.
> It's in the forum at moq.org

I'm not lazy, I was regarding to the fact that I HAVE gone out and looked at 
things, and I have also thought over things I have seen before. It seems to 
fit. But I will read your essay Wien I have the time nonetheless.

>> See, It is NOT as you
>> constantly misinterpret it that we choose different mind sets and thus
>> choose different levels to focus our self at - we are all of them, and 
>> since
>> each of them has a different reality it can't really be done like you 
>> say -
>> although a SOM mind would probably say so.  Now listen to this:
>

> It is not I who claim we shift focus, it's Bo! Put the blame where it 
> belongs.
> I'm merely describing what's wrong with his view. And sometimes it seems 
> you
> don't really buy it, but then later you say you do.

Well, your main argument against the SOL view is that it doesn't incorporate 
all "thought"  or not enough of it into the intellectual level.  We say It 
doesn't need to. Mainly because the MOQ says that thoughts are not really 
such. They are merely called thoughts by the 4th level. That's it. Lined 
out: In a SOM view of things, all thoughts are within the thought realm. In 
a MOQ with SOL there is no thoughts, only different ways to respond to 
Quality. To call certain things Subjects and Objects is one way of 
responding to Quality.  To not respond to Quality in such a manner and going 
about your business responding to Quality within a frame of Social Value 
patterns is within the MOQ (with SOL) essentially the same thing. Both of 
these ways of interpretation and responding uses the brain  - which, from a 
MOQ perspective is a static biological value pattern - but they use it in 
different ways. And so, a person who interprets all the Quality Stimuli 
around them does so with the help of the brain, but how that interpretation 
manifests itself is determined by what levels are in control of the 
biological.
Continuing:


>> In present day Sweden reason has pretty much prevailed. That doesn't mean
>> that social values aren't still around  and that they sometimes goes 
>> against
>> reason completely (KD bra exempel? ^^) They are two patterns of Good who 
>> are
>> in conflict. One is reasonable, one is not. One is Socially Good, one is
>> not. That's hard lining it, since most people (I Sverige iallafall) get
>> impressions of Good, Value, Quality, from all levels, and what then 
>> matters
>> is which Static Patterns of Value any given person is inclined to
>> follow/reast to mostly. MAKE NO MISTAKE! It is NOT a choice of the "Mind"
>> what static pattern of Good any given person is to follow (I.e. it is NOT 
>> a
>> rational decision and it is not something that comes from the brain at 
>> all)
>> it is an overall reaction to Quality.
>
> Yes, actually, the "frame of mind" or "focus" or whatever you'd like to 
> call it,
> *is* a good way to reason about human interaction. It works ok since
> intellectual patterns can represent other patterns of lower value, and 
> therefore
> you can intellectually reason like you do above, and also as Bo does up to 
> a
> certain point.
>
> However, this point of view requires that you lower the bar for the 4:th 
> level
> to a point where anything that represents anything else is an intellectual
> pattern. If you raise it to Bo's "standards", any intellectual pattern 
> that
> represents a lower pattern, is not an intellectual pattern,

Uhm, yes it is. Even within the SOL. A "thought" though, may be a 
manifestation of social values and thus not belong to the Intellectual 
level.

>which contradicts
> itself. So, Bo end up calling thoughts about social interaction "social
> patterns", and thoughts about biology such as sexual urges, biological 
> patterns,
> and then thoughts about inorganic patterns becomes inorganic patterns.

The MOQ says they are not really thoughts though. What you call thoughts ARE 
indeed of the different patterns, all thay have in common is that they are 
transformed into ther static patterns by the brain. So to speak. In the end 
Thoughts are just different kinds of reactions to Quality - not a accurate 
description, but there are no good words enough for this. Will have to 
invent some.


>
> The rock is an inorganic pattern, yes. But the levels are not in conflict, 
> they
> depend on each other. Sometimes higher level patterns dominate lower 
> patterns,
> but if it destroys them, it also destroys itself. If you destroy the cells 
> of
> your brain, you go as well, so you can't go to war on biology.

Agreed.


Allt för tillfället, Ha D fint!

Chris