[MD] Patterns

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Arlo quotes Pirsig]
All this is summed up clearly and without confusion when Pirsig says, 
"Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They 
originate out of society, which originates out of biology which 
originates out of inorganic nature."

[Ham]
It is not clear, and it is not correct.

[Arlo]
I think its evidently clear. The "self" is a semiotic reference point 
arising from the point of confluence between the assimiliation of the 
collective consiousness and the unique, propriety experiences of the 
individual organism. Intellect originates out of social activity. It 
does not exist prior to it. The mind is a social phenomenon. Our 
unique voices have agency and value only as part of the ongoing 
social dialogue.

But at least you are distancing yourself, rightly so, from Pirsig. 
I'm not interested one bit in persuading you to think differently, 
Ham, I am merely articulating the MOQ as it is. If you say, "that's 
the MOQ but I think differently", yeah so what? So you have your 
Glorious Lone Man in Ham's Essencialist Philosophy. Maybe Platt 
should join you there instead of warping, distorting and omitting 
large sections of Pirsig's work to get it to seem to say something 
other than it does.

[Ham]
But mental, as in "relating to the mind", is defined as "the total 
emotional and intellectual response of AN INDIVIDUAL to his 
environment".  Look it up in the dictionary, Arlo.

[Arlo]
Oh gee, well if the DICTIONARY says it....

[Platt]
Your favorite author doesn't like to define words.  If he did, 
perhaps we wouldn't be struggling so hard to hash out what he "really meant".

[Arlo]
"We"? Why are you "struggling" to hash out what Pirsig "meant"? His 
words are pretty clear to me. Seems the only problem here is the 
difficulty you and Platt face trying to get Pirsig's words to say 
something other than what he "meant".

[Ham]
THE INDIVIDUAL EXISTS!   (You can quote me on it.)

[Arlo]
Sure it does. The "self" exists as a semiotic reference point, and 
its existence derives from the confluence of the unique experience 
organism and the assimilation of the collective consciousness. 
Although a "fiction", it has provided us great pragmatic value. Or so 
says Pirsig, and I tend to agree.

You can quote us on it.