[MD] Art for our sakes ?

[Heather Perella]

Ian, 
    I haven't looked at these yet, but I will.  I must
comment though.  I'm very glad you posted this.  A
certain repeating of the same ol' is getting this
forum stuck for the moment, you know, was it s/o or a
rabbit that ran in front of me last night and then say
this over and over again a thousand, thousand times,
was it s/o or a rabbit that ran in front of me last
night, was it s/o or a rabbit, etc...


needin' a break from this,
SA



Ian:
> Take a look at this beautiful anthology of poems and
> art works from Alan Rayner.
>
http://www.inclusional-research.org/furtherreading.php
> Download "Natural Communion" (8.7 Meg, but worth
> it.)
> 
> The quality missing from objective reality is
> dynamic process - Dynamic Quality.
> 
> Read the "Preview" too ...
> "Despite the claims of its advocates to the
> contrary, objective logic and
> methodology is not based rigorously on evidence but
> on lazy presupposition ..."
> 
> As well as the poems and paintings ...
> Enjoy
> Ian
> 
> On 2/12/08, Steve Peterson <stevenkpeterson at mac.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Platt,
> >
> >
> > [Steve]
> > How do you argue that property is part of the
> > essential nature of man?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Do you consider yourself a Deist?
> > >
> > > I consider myself a Mysterian. But Deist will
> do.
> >
> >
> > Steve:
> > I had never heard of that term Wikipedia says:
> > "New Mysterianism is a philosophy proposing that
> certain problems will
> > never be explained or at the least cannot be
> explained by the human
> > mind at its current evolutionary stage. The
> problem most often referred
> > to is the hard problem of consciousness; i.e. how
> to explain sentience
> > and qualia and their interaction with
> consciousness."
> >
> > Is this what you believe?
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Steve:
> > >> In a liberal society, rationales can be
> criticized. Religious dogma
> > >> we are
> > >> told is above criticism since it is a matter of
> faith.
> > >
> > > What is dogma to you is belief to others. I
> argue that all belief
> > > includes
> > > an element of faith.
> >
> > Steve:
> > We've been through this before. I think we agreed
> that the use of term
> > faith to say that it is a virtue to hold certain
> beliefs outside the
> > realm of rational questioning is bad.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >>> Steve:
> > >>>> The other point is that it is not only
> happiness but suffering that
> > >>>> Harris says we need to consider in judging
> morality. Certainly
> > >>>> religion continues to be a great source of
> suffering.
> > >>>
> > >> Platt:
> > >>> Compared to the state as a source of
> suffering, religion is heaven.
> > >>> Statists tend to forget that Communism and
> National Socialism were
> > >>> responsible for over 125 million deaths in the
> last century.
> > >>
> > >> Steve:
> > >> I still see this as a non sequitur. It is
> certainly not an argument
> > >> that faith (as the idea that it is good to
> belief things without
> > >> reason or
> > >> evidence) really is a virtue.
> > >
> > > Not a non sequitur if suffering is your
> criterion of evil as it seems
> > > to be
> > > for Harris, not to mention Reagan..
> >
> > Steve:
> > But Harris would agree that Communism and National
> Socialism are evil.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >> Steve:
> > >> I am not necessarily arguing that religion
> needs to be dispensed
> > >> with. I am
> > >> simply saying that beliefs must be evaluated
> based on intellectual
> > >> quality
> > >> rather than accepted on authority of magic
> books. If religion really
> > >> is
> > >> wroth anything (and I think it is) then there
> will be something of
> > >> value
> > >> left once dogma is rejected in favor if reason.
> >
> > Platt:
> > > Your faith in reason can be viewed as dogmatic
> as religious belief.
> >
> > Steve:
> > What have I said that suggests a dogmatic belief?
> >
> > Platt:
> > > Speaking of John Locke, would you agree with
> what he wrote in "Civil
> > > Government?"
> > >
> > > "To understand political power aright, and
> derive it from its
> > > original, we
> > > must consider what estate all men are naturally
> in, and this is , a
> > > state
> > > of perfect freedom to order their actions, and
> dispose of their
> > > possessions
> > > and persons as they think fit, within the bounds
> of the law of Nature,
> > > without asking leave or depending upon the will
> of any other."
> > >
> > > To me this sets out the fundamental  battle
> between the intellectual
> > > and
> > > social levels as outlined in the MOQ.
> >
> > Steve:
> > Locke reasons based on SOM premises. According to
> Northrop, he reasons
> > that as mental substances we are completely free.
> So why would we want
> > to participate in a government that will
> necessarily be to give up some
> > liberty? Locke says that the only reason we do
> this is because we can't
> > defend our private property on our own.
> >
> > This thinking is completely at odds with the MOQ
> which says that the
> > "free" individual that Locke is talking about does
> not exist without
> > social patterns. Locke sees that man is subject to
> the law of Nature
> > (inorganic and biological patterns), but does not
> see the evolutionary
> > roll of social patterns. He sees social patterns
> as imposed and
> > corrupting a "free" man rather than man as being a
> product of social
> > evolution as well.
> >
> > Pirsig addresses this fallacy here:
> > "Is society good or is society evil? ...The idea
> that, "man is born
> > free but is everywhere in chains" was never true.
> There are no chains
> > more vicious than the chains of biological
> necessity into which every
> > child is born. Society exists primarily to free
> people from these
> > biological chains. It has done that job so
> stunningly well
> > intellectuals forget the fact and turn upon
> society with a shameful
> > ingratitude for what society has done."
> >
> 
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