[MD] The End of Faith - Spirituality

[Platt Holden]

> [Platt]
> The enlightenment Founding Fathers weren't "neutered" from their religion.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Actually, this is a great example of how "religion" was neutered by 
> secular enlightenment. The secular ideas of "liberty" and "freedom" 
> developed by enlightenment philosophers, and influenced by the 
> encounter with Native Americans, stands in stark contrast to the 
> thousand year rule of "religion" in the west.
> 
> It also evidences the time from which "religion" has attempted to lay 
> claim to the very philosophies that neutered it. And it just goes to 
> show the extreme lengths people go to to proclaim "God is on my 
> side", even after secular enlightenment should have freed us from all 
> that nonsense.

Say what? Are you claiming the Founding Fathers rejected religion?

> [Arlo previously]
> But your claim was not about the last 100 years. It was about how 
> those who advocate "state supremacy" are "atheists". Historically, 
> this is far from true. Nor is your "implied" belief that "belief in 
> God" keeps man "free from state control", as is proven false by even 
> the most cursory of historical reads.
> 
> [Platt]
> Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Castro et al were God-fearing 
> leaders? Yeah, right. 
> 
> [Arlo]
> I'm not even sure what this is, other than ridiculous distractive 
> talk-radio rhetoric. It makes absolutely no sense in reply to what 
> I've said. So quick it comes to that.

Makes perfect sense in response to your claim that "it's far from true" 
that those who advocate state supremacy are atheists. 

> For how many thousand years did man "believe in God", serve 
> "God-fearing leaders", and end up with no rights, no liberty, 
> executed at whim, subservient to the Lords, and that's not even 
> mentioning the millions slaughtered by "God-fearing leaders" simply 
> for not believing in the right god.

Recent history has seen the consequences of replacing the supremacy
of God with the supremacy of the state. 

> No, it is not "belief in God" that has kept man "free from state 
> control", much as the post-secular enlightenment apologists may wish 
> to distort it.

Who are these secular enlightened people you keep talking about? Are
they the same intellectuals Pirsig says have led us to PARADISE  . . .
PARADISE . . .PARADISE?