[MD] The End of Faith - Spirituality

[Platt Holden]

Hi Bo, 

Do you agree that both communism and fascism glorify social authority
and willingly sacrifice individuals for the greater good? (Also, see comment
below.)

Regards,
Platt

> Platt, Chris and interested parties.
> Communism has been troublesome for the MOQ Discuss, but I 
> don't think it need be. (LILA)
> 
>     The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow 
>     of society by intellect was most strongly felt in Europe, 
>     particularly Germany, where the effects of World War I 
>     were the most devastating.  Communism and socialism, 
>     programs for intellectual control over society, were 
>     confronted by the reactionary forces of fascism, a 
>     program for the social control of intellect.  
> 
> This is correct IMO, Europe until the end of WW1 was not all 
> intellect - rational - run. The old social values of "my country right or
> wrong" still ruled and that went for the armed forces more than any, and the
> generals of all sides callously threw their armies into a sure annihilation.
> Duty, discipline come what may. Then with it's aftermath (or during the war
> in fact) came the communist revolution i Russia (Pirsig goes on) 

>     Nowhere were the intellectuals more intense in their 
>     determination to overthrow the old order.  Nowhere did 
>     the old order become more intent on finding ways to 
>     destroy the excesses of the new intellectualism. Phædrus 
>     thought that no other historical or political analysis 
>     explains the enormity of these forces as clearly as does 
>     the Metaphysics of Quality. 
> 
> Communism is a totally intellectual (objective) vision of an ideal 
> society (to each according to needs and from each according to 
> ability ...or something like that) It had immense  appeal and 
> almost all western Europe countries got strong communist 
> movements and in post-war Germany a revolution was just 
> around the corner. I agree with Pirsig that the MOQ explain this 
> most convincingly. But NOTE this requires the S/O intellect, a 
> "manipulation of symbols" intellect makes zero sense. If any the 
> Nazis were the ones fond of symbols.      
> 
>     The gigantic power of socialism and fascism, which have 
>     overwhelmed this century, is explained by a conflict of 
>     levels of evolution.  This conflict explains the driving 
>     force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power but 
>     as an all-consuming glorification of social authority and 
>     hatred of intellectualism.  His anti-Semitism was fueled by 
>     anti-intellectualism. His hatred of communists was fueled 
>     by anti-intellectualism.  His exaltation of the German volk 
>     was fueled by it. His fanatic persecution of any kind of 
>     intellectual freedom was driven by it.  
> 
> Right, regarding Hitler and right regarding the forces that 
> supported him, mostly the "landed gentry" in many countries, 
> Sweden and Norway too, who saw the collectivization as a great 
> threat. And around this time (of collectivization) communism went 
> bad, Christoffer says that nationalism took over, but the many 
> republics merging into the Soviet Union wasn't exactly a nation 
> like Pirsig speaking about the "German Volk" - yet. Perhaps the 
> MOQ explains this in an even deeper sense, that of intellect can't 
> operate as if disconnected from everything. It's "out of social 
> value" and can't neglect it.  
> 
> Nuff said. ...except that I agree with Christoffer on China, 
> Cambodia, North Korea and Cuba. I think our democracies, 
> social, or not so social, are the best. For Platts benefit I think 
> Europeans have a false impression of the USA as harsh on the 
> poor, "do or die" and such, but there's a lot of welfare programs, 
> bureaucracy too.  

[Platt]
Yes, much too much interference of government, a steady loss of freedom 
since Wilson and SOM intellectuals were appointed to run society.