[MD] Birth of subjects & objects

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Hello Joseph

You wrote:
I disagree that in Pirsig's thought "patterns" and "realities" are disparate
entities inasmuch as Qualities are values in existence. IMO as I read
Pirsig I find self-consciousness, proprietary-awareness of thoughts,
feelings, sensations as the structure of the social level. SOL is the
structure of the intellectual level.

Me:
I would also not say that realities and patterns are disparate entities, but 
I would say that "seen" from within each pattern, "reality" looks different, 
so to speak. So would you agree that the Subject/Object view of "reality" is 
the basis for the intellectual level? And if you do, how would you 
categorize the MOQ?


Joseph:
In the writings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky I read more about the mechanical
"I" which can evolve to a conscious "I". IMO you misread Pirsig by
attributing to him a dismissal of selfness. His struggle is self. IMO your
description of physical reality being based in awareness has no foundation
and is not real. I do not agree with your concept that "conscious awareness"
is a sensible contingent. IMO "conscious awareness" is the quality of
evolution to the social level. Oops Evolution! A value in existence.

Me:
Would you care to expand on your thoughts about "conscious awareness" 
growing out of the social level, or maybe that is the wrong way to put it, 
but what kind of awareness do you think it is that would emerge first?

Oh, and I think you are right on with that remark on evolution.

Regards

Chris