[MD] The End of Faith

[Steve Peterson]

> Hi Bo,



> On 17 Jan. Peterson wrote:
>
>> Does the MOQ oppose dogmatic religion? I would say that since the
>> "truths" of religion are to be accepted on faith, social institutions
>> such as religions are an example of a social pattern attempting to
>> devour an intellectual one. What do you think?
>
Bo:
> Dogmatic religions - Judaism and its offshoots - are social
> patterns, but in themselves they aren't "an attempt to devour
> intellectual patterns", rather attempts to control BIOLOGICAL
> value. The social lever is infinitely older than the intellectual.


Steve:

True enough. That must be why they ever came in to existence, but  
what are they doing now? Are they not "a social pattern attempting  
devour an intellectual one" in some ways today?


Bo:
> However, the conflict known as "Islam vs the West"  is intellect
> trying to suppress social value. This mission is completed in the
> Occident, but intellect presses relentlessly on into the Middle East
> where social values still dominates.


Steve:
  The claims that religions make about the origin of the universe,  
the divinity of their prophets, the miracles that occur in their  
rituals, the power of prayer, etc. are scientific and historical  
claims to "truth," thus, they are intellectual patterns. The  
religions themselves are social patterns. Religions maintain these  
low quality intellectual patterns to maintain themselves at the  
expense of higher quality intellectual patterns.

Bo:
> In Pirsig's presentation it looks very much as if MOQ's mission is
> to save society from intellect's anti-social tendencies (LILA).

Steve:
As well as to save intellect from society's anti-intellectual  
tendencies. In this case it may be even better to say "to save  
society" from society's anti-intellectual tendencies, since religion  
seems to be incompatible with civilization now that people who hold  
onto religion's claims without reason or evidence are blowing  
themselves up in crowded busses and crashing airplanes into buildings  
and their family's are being congratulated and honored by their  
neighbors because of the "martyrdom" of their children in these  
"sacred bombings." These people honestly believe they are going to  
eternal paradise. This belief is an intellectual pattern that is very  
dangerous to other intellectual patterns and civilization itself.


> Bo
>
> PS,
> The Koran "suras" are just a little worse than some of the  old
> Testament's verses, and surely just as bloodthirsty as the Jewish
> "Tora".

Steve:
Agreed. The problem is with viewing these ancient texts as containing  
scientific or historical claims that are unassailable.

Regards,
Steve