[MD] moq thought experiement 1.

[squonkmuse at talktalk.net]

Squonk said:
Here is an argument: The pre lingual state can not be remembered because there 
are no static patterns to remember. Therefore, not even Zennies can remember the 
pre lingual state. So, how can it be asserted that this state is not?identical 
to another?

dmb replied:
But there are countless accounts of this dynamic state and so they obviously can 
remember it.

Hi David,
It seems to me the state informs a static interpretation. I think it is this to which you are referring.
This also explains how it is possible to hijack this state in a static interpretation for other ends such as religion. etc.
If anyone claims to be able to remember this state then, as the state is not possible to remember, (memory being a static construction) they are mistaken.

David:
And the infant's inability to give it any meaning or recall it 
later is one of the key difference between babies and mystics. This inability to 
preserve it is exactly what I meant when I said that for an infant the 
experience is "literally meaningless". Your argument is just a re-statement of 
my argument, the one that supposedly wasn't given.
?
s: Not so David if you will carefully attend to what is being stated: The pre lingual state can not be remembered. If mystics claim to be able to remember anything, it is a static construction that delineates the whole remembrance.
Note: In both cases the state is not remembered.

David:
Apparently you're unaware of the fact, but pre-verbal infants and infants in 
general have been the object of quite a lot of study. These studies form the 
basis of the principles of developmental psychology. Among the classical 
pragmatists, George Herbert Mead was the expert that Dewey and James looked to 
most. He was able to show how the social self forms first and must be in place 
before the individualistic ego can emerge, which seems to be quite consistent 
with the way third level social patterns have to be in place before intellectual 
patterns can emerge. Maslow and Piaget would be more widely known. They also 
show that human development occurs in stages and that the lower stages remain 
even while more and more are added. Seems like every one I've ever encountered 
has a similar hierarchy and I bet there are others I don't even know about. You 
can ask Mr. Google and find out for yourself. I suspect he'll tell you the same 
thing.

s: The patterns you indicate can not be a dynamic state for this reason: Dynamic states are unpatterned.
It's apples and oranges isn't it?
I'm not doubting what you say is correct above is correct, but if these experiences are patterned then they can't be a dynamic state.

David:
All this seems completely obvious and reasonable to me and so I'm baffled as to 
why you're resisting it so relentlessly. Its like you have a grudge or 
something.

s:?You are referring to static patterns: the first static patterns laid down here can not be the dynamic state in question because dynamic states are un patterned.

David:
I'm also a bit stunned at your lack of concern for the hypothetical test 
subjects. You're talking about robbing people of their lives, sir. May I suggest 
that you ponder the full meaning of that?

s:?Schrodinger's cat.