[MD] moq thought experiment 1.

[MarshaV]

Hi Ron,

I, too, am waiting for Ham to admit that an 'autonomous self' does not 
exist.

There is no autonomous self and no thing-in-itself.  All entities are 
dependent on causes and conditions.

But what says Ham-I-Am?


Marsha




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Kulp" <RKulp at ebwalshinc.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiment 1.


>
>
> Ron:
>> Essentialism states that finitude is attributed to value awareness.
>> Therefore the finite self is an illusion, even by your own hand.
> Ham:
> Finitude is not ultimate reality, to be sure.  But the finite self
> (being-aware) is our reality, illusionary or not.
>
> Ron:
> This is what you would call one of those primary
> ontological questions that need to be answered to complete
> a metaphysic by your standards. Which is it in Essentialism?
> is the finite self illusionary or not?
>
> Ron prev.:
>> Your whole case revolves on Aristotelian logic which MoQ
>> diverts from.  This is why things are not matching up.
>> You may not level collectivism because it stems from this
>> logic, a logic that MoQ transcends.
> Ham:
> Funny, I've always thought Essentialism was more Platonic than 
> Aristotelian.
> How is Aristotelian logic different than Euclidean logic?  And how can you
> justify a philosophy on the ground that it "transcends" logic?
>
> Ron:
> Logic functions on particular axioms. MoQ rejects axioms.
> There is experience and description
> of experience which utilizes being without logic therefore
> transcending the "vat" of western subject/object metaphysics.
> Now you may argue that logic is the way in which we understand
> the world  but this would be leaving the term open ended and
> confuse the process of axiomatic systems of truth finding with
> experience itself.
>
> ron prev:
>> Let's speak essentially, Essence is only limited by value sensibility
>> which creates the self-other dichotomy.  But self-other is a
>> manifestation of the absoluteness of Essence, in fact reality is
>> a manifestation of Essence, which is the negate of nothingness.
>> Therefore your "Free agent" can not be absolutely free can it?
>
>
> Ham:
> An agent is part of a system, which means that it can't be "absolutely"
> anything.
> Freedom, like everything else in existence, is relative to the source. 
> But
> within this relational system the individual is an autonomous entity.  It 
> is
> a unique conjunction of awareness and beingness which is the power to 
> create
> and direct its own reality.  Conversely, a "collective mind" is dependent 
> on
> the values and authority of the majority.
>
> Ron:
>
> au·ton·o·mous    (ô-tŏn'ə-məs)
> adj.
> Not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent:
> adjective
> 1.  not controlled by outside forces; "an autonomous judiciary"; "a 
> sovereign state"
> 2.  existing as an independent entity;
>
> 3.  (of persons) free from external control and constraint
>
> Ron quotes Ham:
> " But the finite self(being-aware) is our reality, illusionary or not."
>
> How then, does finitude exist with autonomy? you seem to be flip flopping
> your stance in relation to your argument. What you seem to be saying is
> that within the realm of the collective values and authority of the 
> majority
> the "free agent" may choose to be autonomous. I use the term "free agent"
> loosely for it seems that free agency is relational and dependant on 
> certain criteria in your metaphysic.
>
> Ron:
>> I think it's a case of the pot calling the kettle collective.
>
> Ham:
> No, it's a case of the individual calling the "vat" collective.
>
> Ron:
> I think we are both calling the "vat" collective, MoQ calls it
> SOM. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
>
>
> If you call MoQ collective you are calling Essentialism collective
> based on the same grounds.
>
> thanks Ham
>
>
>
>
>
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