[MD] Regarding The Fundamental Nature of The Intellectual Level

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Ian. you make Good points.

you write:
> Which is why the "knowledge for knowledge sake" idea is interesting.
> Expand on that - and leave the "isms" out for now ;-) - they just get
> in the way.
> Ian


and then you write (or actually before, but I'm trying to summarise)

> On 7/15/08, Ian Glendinning <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>> you said
>> "I seem to magically turn into Stalin in peoples heads, and the
>> ideological stand-off begins."
>>
>> My point precisely. My comments are all about changing the rules of
>> that debate - to avoid that recurring useless, destructive,
>> interminable standoff.
>>
>> I call this the "'somebody else's problem' problem". You see that
>> standoff as "the others" problem, not yours / ours jointly. You are
>> putting yourself in a "camp" (with DMB) and projecting that position
>> outwards. I call that "looking for a fight" - couldn't be better
>> designed to create a standoff if you tried.
>>
>> I'm just asking for more careful argumentation - choice of language,
>> respect etc (from all camps) - so we can make progress.
>>
>> Your underlying position I haven't seen anything to disagree with yet.
>> Ian

Point taken.
I'm not trying to make a plea for any ism as such, I am just trying to have 
a structured debate - so I tried to line it out below, so - what do you 
think of it?



>> > - First I put it to you that the nature of the intellectual level is 
>> > that of
>> > the "Quest for knowledge for knowledge's sake alone"
>> >
>> > - Then I say that Social Level Values should be subordinated to 
>> > Intellectual
>> > ones.
>> >
>> > - But if Intellectual Values is the movements towards better 
>> > understanding,
>> > then I have to draw the conclusion that social structures should be 
>> > modelled
>> > into serving that as much as possible.
>> >
>> > - Looking at this I notice that "freedom" and concepts like that more 
>> > and
>> > more looks like social value patterns - they seem to be instruments 
>> > which
>> > the intellectual level have planted in the social level to help itself.
>> >
>> > - Then It comes to me, quite naturally, that if social structures are 
>> > to be
>> > remodelled to serve the intellectual level better (and thus evolution) 
>> > well
>> > then the social value pattern that is the _concept of "freedom"_ may 
>> > have to
>> > be looked over as well.
>> >
>> > The problem occurs when I propose that the freedom that is free market
>> > enterprises may have to be restricted in order to serve the 
>> > intellectual
>> > level (as they are clearly social level patterns) I seem to magically 
>> > turn
>> > into Stalin in peoples heads, and the ideological stand-off begins.

Let's skip the stand-of and discuss the things I wrote then?


> Subject: Re: [MD] Regarding The Fundamental Nature of The Intellectual
> Level

> Chris, Marsha, DMB, et al,
>
> Hurray ... we've got there ... again.
>
> Yes any "organised" pursuit of knowledge is a social pattern, founded
> on faith in a tradition - like science, (even more so if it is used as
> the basis of a form of governance).
>
> Which is why the "knowledge for knowledge sake" idea is interesting.
> Expand on that - and leave the "isms" out for now ;-) - they just get
> in the way.
> Ian