[MD] The Intellectual Gauntlet

[MarshaV]

No offense, but....Zzzzz........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz    



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian.glendinning at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The Intellectual Gauntlet


> Ron, Marsha, (and Gav, Mati and DMB)
> 
> Ron as you say the crux is using language with "MoQ understanding" and
> the problem we have communicating that shared understanding with the
> langauge we actually use.
> 
> To join up the dots ... as Gav says, the Type 2 devil, the Giant
> pervades our discourse, because we use shared language - how could we
> do other ? But that shared language contains all the values and
> misplaced concreteness that those social patterns - agreed meanings,
> definitions and usages - conserve in the language.
> 
> I think Mati has it when he talks not about the fact that we use
> language (full of social values) as we must, but "how" we use it - to
> what intents and purposes. At the risk of winding DMB up further, but
> I'm serious, I think the idea of "rigorous" argument is part of the
> Giant - one reason I personally prefer conceptual slipping - lateral
> thinking of sorts - and joining up dots not otherwise connected in
> logical, causal ways. Traditional "rigour" grasps for those concrete
> meanings.
> 
> I don't believe we have solved this issue, but I'm pretty sure we've
> identified what it is. Redefining argumentation - how we make MoQish
> use of language, to MoQish ends and purposes - using a language we
> share with the Giant.
> Ian
> 
> On 7/21/08, Ron Kulp <RKulp at ebwalshinc.com> wrote:
>> Ian to Marsha,
>>
>> I agree / agreed with what you say by the way - just very hard to know
>> how to translate that into actions on an e-mail discussion group, or
>> actions in academic discourse, or actions in "conventional" western
>> life. I try and I do, but it is still nevertheless hard to express in
>> intelligible terms.
>>
>> In fact your summary here " .... Many of the problems this list is
>> having "defining things" would melt away.The subject/object pov stays
>> intact but can be seen as a workable method in a conventional world
>> not reality itself." says to me that you and DMB are in fact agreeing.
>>
>> It is understandable that confusion is caused by the fact that - to
>> paraphrase - we need definitions in order to discuss the real world,
>> even if in the real world those definitions are insignificant (or much
>> less significant, anyway).
>>
>> "Misplaced concreteness" this is often called. We talk in concrete
>> terms of things that are much more .... err, nebulous, ephemeal,
>> ineffable ... and mistake them for being more concrete and objective
>> than they really are.
>>
>> Ron:
>> That is the whole problem Ian. Right there. The cultural reflex is to
>> grasp for concrete meaning. But, concrete entities do not exist.
>> with MoQ understanding comes description without this fallacy.
>> we understand our words for what they are, descriptors of experience not
>> symbols as things.
>>
>>
>> this gives language more power to describe scientific phenomena without
>> the
>> stigma of concrete entities. Atoms then may be described to behave as if
>> they prefer their bonds. Not that they are conceptualized as autonomous
>> rational entities but rather a description of their observed behavior.
>>
>>
>> when we have the understanding, the language takes care of itself.
>>
>> This goes for any of the MoQ terms including better-ness and Quality.
>>
>> Better-ness is a dynamic term to describe an experience of making
>> choices based on intellectual, social, biological and inorganic "truths"
>> we build through experience.
>>
>> The same may be said of "value" and "Quality".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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