[MD] Tit's

[MarshaV]

Ham,

I understand my problem is trying to use language, which is conventional 
(static value pattern), to write about things ineffable and flowing.  I'm 
messing up the MOQ and Buddhism.  Actually both seem reasonably clear until 
I start to compare and/or define differences, and attempt an explanation. 
Then I get myself lost.  Time to put it aside for a while.  I think I'll 
chase butterflies.

I still cannot accept the idea of a primary source or ultimate purpose.  In 
spite of Parmenides' principle.  But if it makes you happy...

Compassion is relative.  But I haven't found anything that can match the 
benefits, conventional though it may be.   And I'm not near proficient at 
it.

These discussions have been challenging, which is always helpful, so I thank 
you.

Marsha




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ham Priday" <hampday1 at verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Tit's


> Hi Marsha --
>
>> Value IS the universal principle.  All objects (spovs) are concepts. 
>> Intellect is not the agent AND not a disembodied agency.  Intellect and 
>> agent are not separate, but interdependent.  Conceptually constructed 
>> through interdependent relationship. That is the Middle Way, and 
>> corresponds to the MOQ's interaction of patterns with DQ.
>
> This is the same problem I have with Platt and others here  Which values 
> do you think are universal --"low-quality" values, "high quality" values, 
> or both?   Value is "universal" in the sense that it is the essence of our 
> reality.  But we don't experience it universally, that is, as a homologous 
> whole.  We experience it relationally -- for example, as our love or dread 
> for particular things and events.  You see, if Value could be cognitively 
> abstracted in its pure form, there would be no differentiation, meaning it 
> would not be possible to sense a range of values and pattern physical 
> reality from it.  Goodness and badness would  be indistinguishable, and 
> morality would be meaningness.
>
> That's why value is "embodied" in human sensibility.  It's our immanent 
> connection with the "otherness" that represents our source in Essence.  To 
> put it another way, we are the sensible agents of value.  We bring value 
> into being by experiencing it as a multiplistic, relational world.  Value 
> is what makes cognitive awareness possible, and all awareness is 
> proprietary to the self.  The idea that Value exists independently of the 
> self is a metaphoric construct which continues to confound the MoQists. 
> It is epistemologically flawed, denies self-determination and free choice, 
> and makes individual behavior subservient to the laws of nature.
>
>> There is no self (literally) and no objective experiences.  All is the 
>> interdependency of values.
>>
>> I think the interdepency of everything counters your
>> "'ex nihilo' principle" and the need for a primary source.
>
> That makes no sense to me, Marsha.  I know you mean well, but you are 
> defining reality as a valuistic tautology -- values valuing value.  How is 
> one value dependent on another and, without a source, where does this 
> interdependency start?  Despite what Pirsig says, you can't have value 
> without a sensible subject in relation to something valued.  Again, to put 
> it bluntly, value is an SOM phenomenon.  Take away the observing subject 
> and no value is realized.  Conversely, remove the experienced object and 
> there is nothing to value.  The primary source is what creates the 
> dichotomy that divides awareness from beingness.
>
>> At the moment I'm thinking that awareness and compassion
>> are more essential to a life of quality.
>
> Well, certainly awareness is.  Compassion is one of those relative 
> emotions, like resentment, envy and desire, the nature and practice of 
> which depends on the social cirumstances.  But they're all derived from 
> value-sensibility ... YOUR value-sensibility, not the universe's.
>
> With love,
> Ham.
>
>
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