[MD] Democracy

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Hello Bodvar and all. Been away for a while. Damn this real life that keeps 
me away from philosophy =)

Regarding Democracy then:

>> Bo:
>> > The ideal intellect-controlled community is democracy with free
>> > press, speech ..etc.. all those patterns that Pirsig lists
>
>> A small point, but -
>> I must protest here. Democracy is "the rule of the people" and so it
>> naturally follows that democracy is only MOQ-moral if the people
>> ruling is ruled by the intellectual level above the social level. This
>> is not the case. Anywhere.
>
> "Objection sustained your honor".  I know that the term
> "democracy" basically means people's rule, but the way we use it
> includes the whole parliamentary system. Doesn't it?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> The other post for me of the same date is related to it:
>
>> [Bodvar]
>> > The social-intellectual relationship has been equally difficult in
>> > intellectual- and social-steeped cultures (because no level knows
>> > the Q context) and Pirsig (correctly) believes that the MOQ will
>> > alleviate it. However I disagree with his idea that intellect can be
>> > enlightened to see that its "devaluation" of social patterns creates a
>> > social nightmare. Intellect is static and must by definition pursue its
>> > mission. It's the MOQ that gives us the grand view and it is no
>> > intellectual sub-set. Intellect is MOQ's sub-set!!.

>> [Chris]
>> I think this is a very important point Bo, but may I ask you to point out
>> a static intellectual value pattern please, and can you tell me why that
>> example is not a social pattern (where is the fundamental conflict?) and
>> then we can take it from there?

> To point out one intellectual pattern ... that isn't social too is
> impossible because all levels are on top of  the former, there is no
> intellectual patten that doesn't have a social base. For instance
> democracy (that Pirsig lists among intellectual patterns) consists of
> a society that relegates power to a house of representatives that
> authorize a government to administer its laws with  an independent
> judicial system monitoring it all. Democracy's  INTELLECTUALITY
> is this political system that prevents social power lust to flourish.

Allright. My point was that this is not really true. I mean, the most easily 
identified example is how religion is used in political campaigns (God Bless 
Our Great Country) and even if it isn't religion it is racism or any number 
of things that is primary of the social level. Democracy is utterly in the 
hands of propaganda - and the most efficient propaganda is of course playing 
on social level values.  Thus democracy may be a creation of the 
intellectual level, but it's being dominated by the social.

> To make it easier to understand the level hierarchy is to see them
> in their negative capacity (which IS the MOQ way) As dynamic
> escapes from the strictures of the former level. Biology negates
> inorganic death and its primary value is feeding & breeding. This
> "dog eats dog" existence is what social value escaped by creating
> a reality that transcends biological life. This god-ruled reality was
> what intellect in its turn found oppressive and created the
> objective-skeptical-impartial attitude to conquer it.


Right, so, anyway. The way I see it a MOQ guides society should be one where 
the social level is restructured to service the intellectual level, and as I 
will look at the intellectual level as more or less "The Quest for 
 Knowledge" (facilitated by a sense of individuality to be sure, it wouldn't 
work without it)  - I would roughly suggest a society that is regulated so 
that social patterns never are allowed to subjugate peoples intellectual 
development AND where all people have the possibilities to expand their 
intellectual capacity should they whish to do so.

Agree?