[MD] Tit's

[MarshaV]

I guess I was suggesting that saying "I'll believe it when I see it." should 
not be taken seriously.  The mind seems to unconsciously overlay all sort of 
patterns on to what the eye's see.  I used a photograph as an example, 
because I've had first-hand experience using photographs as reference  for 
paintings.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david buchanan" <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Tit's


>
> dmb said to Krimel:
> I recently learned about an illuminating example of just how powerful 
> concepts are in the act of perception. Leonardo da Vinci did his best to 
> carefully observe the internal anatomy for a drawing of the same. We're 
> talking about an attempt to copy the organs of a corpse onto paper while 
> looking directly at the actual corpse. But Leo's medical knowledge came 
> down to him, for the most part, from Galen, an ancient physician who was 
> wrong about a few things. And these wrong things showed up in da Vinci's 
> drawings. He didn't copy what he saw so much as what he knew. The concepts 
> he'd inherited altered his perception despite the care he took to see 
> clearly. And this is true with all our perceptions. To a degree even 
> further than you suggest, we can only see what our concepts allow us to 
> see.
>
> Krimel replied:
> Wow, are you trying to tell me that the Great Leonardo was influenced by 
> the giants upon whose shoulders he stood? Are you saying that even a 
> genius working in the late 1400's got some details wrong? Next you will be 
> telling me he was a Christian or perhaps Master of the Priory of Sion. 
> ...Perhaps your tale would be bit more impressive if you did your home 
> work better. The tale you tell is in the March 2005 issue of Scientific 
> American Mind....
>
> dmb says:
> Yes, of course Leo stood on shoulders, as we all do, but that isn't even 
> close to what I was "trying" to tell you. And I did not learn about this 
> example from any issue of Scientific American Mind. I learned about it by 
> way of a site devoted to the work of Sir Ernst Gombrich, a philosopher of 
> aesthetics who died in 2001. But let me take a different approach. It was 
> Heidegger's phenomenological insight that we never experience the 
> so-called sense data of which you make so much. My favorite example is the 
> slamming of a door, because it is such a common experience. If one thinks 
> about that experience its pretty easy to see that our understanding of 
> what it is and what it means is immediate. Depending on the situation, you 
> know right away that someone is angry or that the wind is blowing or you 
> are immediately startled and perplexed. There is no sense data, no sound 
> to ponder and decode. You just have an immediate impression. Later this 
> might be altered by subsequent experience.
> The one who just stormed out of the room might be heard to say, "sorry" or 
> "ouch" or you might hear a car start up and drive away. But the idea that 
> the meaning of this event is to be found in the acoustic waves hitting the 
> ear drum is really a rather old-fashioned idea. You'll find such notions 
> in David Hume and other Modern philosophers but today we'd call that 
> "naive realism". And, as Gav pointed out, you're working with the 
> assumptions of SOM when making such points.
>
> And Wow. I like the sassy comebacks and don't mind the insulting little 
> jabs, but I think you can do better. You've obviously run off to ask Mr. 
> Google and in your mind this constitutes "homework". But dude, this is not 
> just weak. Its irrelevant. You haven't even come close to addressing the 
> point, which is that conceptions and not sense dat largely determine 
> perceptions. This is a point Pirsig makes when he says that SOM doesn't 
> acknowledge that there is a social level between "mind" and "matter".
>
> Care to take another crack at it?
>
> P.S. Craig, Steve and Marsha: Sorry but I can't really respond to you 
> simply because I don't understand what your responses mean. Feel free to 
> try again.
>
>
>
>
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