[MD] Chance

[Marsha]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ham Priday" <hampday1 at verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Chance


>
> Hi Marsha -- 
>
> [Ham, previously to Ron]::
>> I'm mostly about concepts, as I believe you are also.  So, as far as we 
>> can help it, let's try not to get mired in word games.
>
> [Marsha]:
>> Sorry to interrupt, but what is your concept of concepts?
>
> What I mean by a concept is the fundamental idea (i.e., theoretical 
> conception) as opposed to a descriptive allegory or metaphor about the 
> idea. For example, "All the world's a stage,
> and all the men and women merely players", from Shakespeare's As You Like 
> it, is a simile for the meaninglessness of human existence.  "I am a dream 
> walking" evokes an emotional impression of life as ephemeral and 
> non-substantive.  These are poetic metaphors intended to convey attitudes 
> or feelings about reality without offering a theoretical foundation for 
> the idea.
>
> When we use an esthetic word like Quality in a metaphysical context, 
> there's a tendency to euphemize it in all sorts of ways that the author 
> may not have endorsed.  This leads to philosophical confusion and a 
> profusion of word games to see who is more "creative" at exploiting the 
> word's meaning.  Not good for Pirsig.
>
> As you know, I'm a literalist who believes that abstract concepts can be 
> defined (even in a negative sense, if necessary) in such a way that they 
> take the form of a logical proposition or axiom.  I think there is a need 
> to do this with philosophy, as witness the efforts of Wittgenstein and 
> Russell who were recently brought to my attention.  It's not that we have 
> to translate all concepts into mathematical equations, but we should have 
> a logically structured theory in mind when presenting ideas in s forum 
> like this.
>
> Designing a hierarchy is a way of categorizing a variety of disparate 
> elements into a unified framework, and this Pirsig has done very well. 
> The value concept is significant for an understanding of finite 
> experience. However, the selection of elements in the MoQ is arbitrary in 
> that it must accommodate Pirsig's notion of Quality, which itself is 
> unconventional.  He sees patterns as "static" (although they support 
> evolution and process) and calls the ground of reality "dynamic" (which 
> imputes change where none is called for.)  Moreover, the hierarchy of 
> static values he presents as an ontology has no comprehensible relation to 
> the DQ which is fundamental to his thesis.  He resists positing a primary 
> source or cause of the hierarchy on the grounds that "definitions would 
> destroy the concept".  As a result, the MoQ is left without a metaphysical 
> foundation.
>
> To sum up, there's a place for metaphor and poetry in philosophy, but 
> metaphysics is not the place.  If we're aiming to propose a new and unique 
> philosophy to the world, it must have a more substantial base to stand on.
>
> Appreciate the question, Marsha.
>
> Best regards,
> Ham
>


Greetings Ham,

Obviously, Quality is the foundation of the MOQ.  Quality FORMS concepts. 
Concepts are intellectual static patterns of value.

So, you do not like the word Quality.  That's your privilege.  The word 
Quality suits me just fine.  Quality, Oneness, Absolute are all terms for 
the same indivisible, indefinable and unknowable thing.

So what exactly are your concepts?  Intellectual static patterns of value.

Nice try, but not a winner.

Marsha








Marsha