[MD] Truth and the Linguistic Turn

[Marsha]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Perella" <spiritualadirondack at yahoo.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Truth and the Linguistic Turn


> Matt, Ron, and Marsha (Marsha mentioned in the P.S.)
>
>
>
>> Matt:
>> Mmm, I don't know about this way of picking out
>> Platonists.  You're talking about something that can
>> occur in any particular person, independent of their
>> philosophical views, a kind of willingness and curiosity to
>> explore other things.  But I hesitate to attribute
>> philosophical views to people that would rather watch
>> football than read or watch Nature programs.  I think
>> Platonism does have something to do with this larger,
>> cultural situation--of people who don't even want to
>> _hear_ the other side (for fear of changing, becoming
>> convinced)--but I think it is much touchier business than
>> almost everyone here, and Pirsig for that matter, think it
>> is in linking up philosophical views with cultural
>> situations.  I think the two are more independent of each
>> other, though you can, given careful treatment, go back and
>> forth between them.  I think Pirsig did it very well in ZMM,
>> and pretty good again in Lila, though in the latter he
>> devoted more of his time to a metaphysics that attempts to
>> gain the philosophers are there own ground, which is
>> needed, but is also less useful when you turn to the larger
>> cultural situation.
>> What I pick out with "Platonism" is a
>> specifically philosophical series of theses--this is,
>> again, my way of unmuddying my target.  My targets are,
>> primarily, other philosophers.  When I turn to the larger
>> cultural situation, I might grasp a few of the weapons
>> honed in my battles in philosophy, but--as your little bar
>> dialogue illustrated--they might not always be the best
>> weapons.  Who's going to wait around to hear a lecture
>> on Plato?  When I'm trying to effect change in the
>> larger culture (normally, one person at a time), I reach
>> for different weapons, one's they will understand.
>> People understand "curiosity"; they don't
>> usually understand "SOM" or
>> "Platonism."  The weapons I choose will certainly
>> reflect to a certain extent my understanding of specifically
>> philosophical issues, but there's no good reason to
>> spend time on that when you're at the bar, not unless
>> you want to sound pretentious.
>
> SA:  This was, by far, one of the clearest posts I've read of yours, by 
> clear, I mean you provided some intention into your activities in life, 
> for one specifically, why you post here and the points your trying to 
> convey.  This last part of your post, though mentioned many times earlier, 
> gets into your focus and what your trying to cultivate.
>     To provide something on my part that could easily be a spin-off story 
> of the main story here, thus, maybe just a simple passing side note on 
> what Ron and you mention here about 'bar people' or people who watch 
> football games.  This doesn't have to be something informative for you and 
> Ron probably already understand this, but it is a passing blurb if you 
> will.
>     Everybody has a philosophy.  Some more descriptive than others.  Some 
> more descriptive in the usage of philosophical points by those that call 
> themselves philosophers, academic to be a little more meaningful as to 
> whom I'm pointing out.  These types of philosophers use the terms and 
> understand the terms of philosophers of the philosophy discipline more so. 
> It's takes a bit of schooling and reading as we well know to learn of this 
> discipline as any other discipline that carries with it a history of 
> people who practiced this in the past.  How else would we learn what they 
> talked and/or wrote about, correct.  Unless it is passed down orally but 
> as we well know, people aren't around many people who talk about the 
> philosophy discipline all that much, and even in the university with 
> professional philosophers and the conferences they attend to talk with 
> each other, some of the points they may want to learn about can easily be 
> found in a book instead of
> searching for somebody to talk about what specifically we want to learn 
> about from such and such a philosopher at this or that point in history.
>     Now, the people who watch football games.  They are not reading and 
> searching for these historical concepts that probably are tuning their 
> lifestyles in ways they (the football watchers) do not readily understand. 
> I mean we find bits and pieces of where history is orienting our daily 
> lives from time to time that is interesting and we've all had these 
> moments.  Pirsig points out how the culture of Europeans and Amerindians 
> in terms of value coalesced in ways that shaped the U.S. culture.  Culture 
> is cultivated over time, thus, has a history.  And people walk patterns 
> built by a history of intentions, thus, concepts as to how and what is to 
> happen and eventually does happen.  Newton, the philosopher understands 
> gravity in ways that help lead up to airplanes flying and people take 
> business trips on these machines.  Sure many people along the way, before 
> and after Newton leads up to these understandings of airplanes and how 
> those flying travels shape
> how people do business now-a-days, etc...
>     So what are the philosophies of these football game watchers.  What is 
> my philosophy, yours, or anybodies?  One way, as we well know, is 
> understood in their lifestyles.  Whether people realize it or not, our 
> lifestyles are philosophies, ways of life are philosophies.  Maybe not 
> analyzed in one way as to how much the thoughts lead up to the actions of 
> watching a football game, but the very act of watching a game is doing 
> what with a person, making them happy if their team wins, fun with the 
> friends, etc...
>      So, I guess my point of all of this, is, what are we doing?  I 
> enjoyed reading this Matt, and I look forward to Ron's exchange.  If it is 
> helping you understand something and making you happy and/or reaching your 
> interests and intentions, well, that's what is probably encouraging this 
> discussion to continue.  This spark of enliving, bringing out ones self, 
> and to look around for oneself that really has one feel alive is found in 
> many ways.  Fun is one of them.  Stimulating ones thoughts another. 
> Reaching a business goal.  Fulfilling ones dreams.  Getting that TV you 
> always wanted.  The dream has come alive and is lived.  Now whether this 
> dream is agreeable with what kind of dream you find worth pursuing or I do 
> or John Doe, etc... that's another story and might be discovered in the 
> thread that's exploring whether a brain in a vat that is mystically moral 
> is worth the natural endeavor or not, well, as Ian pointed out, is 
> answered naturally - so
> it's a wait and see kind of event.
>
>
> Thanks Ron and Matt.
> Enjoyable.
>
>
> tree,
> SA
>
> P.S.  Marsha, haven't had the time to finish listening to the Opera.  I 
> only started listening to it yesterday, so, I haven't sat down to listen 
> to it straight through without stopping to do other activities.  But it is 
> good so far.  The camping?  Well, we made it all the way to the campsite, 
> and I began to gather firewood... and that's when part of tree that I was 
> pushing up on, slipped through my hands, knocked me on the head, the blood 
> came rushing out, and my wife had to help doctor me (also my son).  I put 
> green moss and dirt on it to plug up the gash while my wife made a fire so 
> we could put the ashes on the wound to stop the bleeding.  I laid down and 
> my wife put some fine ashes on the wound after she poked it with a burning 
> stick to help stop the bleeding.  The ashes slowed the blood down 
> tremendously, enough so that I could finally put band-aids on without the 
> blood gushing out past the band-aids.  I had to keep my head back and 
> still do at the
> moment without bending over for too long or some blood builds up in the 
> area, as we all know, and all this blood is too much on the scab and some 
> comes out.  Yet, not too much comes out, the one large band-aid almost as 
> big as my forehead can handle it without me having to change it too soon.
>     So, we didn't stay.  With all the blood, and the danger that it could 
> continue to bleed a lot over night, we left and came back to the house. 
> I've been cleaning the wound regularly and changing the bandage often.  I 
> say my son helped for as my wife was applying ash he (remember he's twenty 
> months old) picked up some ash and put it on my wound too.  He shows his 
> very big human heart already.  He's so helpful, so touching.  We're trying 
> to avoid the stitches, and so far it seems I may not need them, though, 
> the blood still leaks through at times, as I said, especially if I lean 
> over for too long.
>     I remember laying on the earth while my wife applied the ashes and my 
> son looked over me.  These birds were flying around in the branches above 
> me for a long time.  It was like the stories.  I jokingly said to my wife, 
> "Are the birds singing and flying signifying my passage into some heavenly 
> place?"  She said and laughed while saying it, for I was nowhere near 
> dying, "Well, if you see white light and you want to."  I said, "Heck no 
> and laughed."
>      I've been lounging around most of the day, went outside a little bit, 
> but I really can't exert myself too much for it pushes the blood through 
> the healing wound.  I really don't know what to make of all of this.  This 
> is the second time I've tried to bring my son on his first camping trip, 
> and our first one for the year.  Last week it was the thunderstorms and 
> this week a young fallen tree on the noggin'.  It's baffling, but in a 
> way, I like this feeling of baffling.  I think the tree really knocked 
> some sense into me.
>
>
>


SA, tree,

I am sorry that you were physically injured.  It is good that you are okay, 
and that you experienced comfort from your wife and little son.

Baffling, or the philosophy of baffled.  To read and read to discover how 
little you know.  Baffling.  There is a prayer to Shiva to dance on one's 
head.  That would be to knock some sense into one, or in other words to 
abandon thought.  Baffling.

My statement about Tim Russert was much too small.  I have listened to some 
of the talking at his Memorial.  It seems he had a very large heart and an 
abundance of compassion for his family and friends.

The two little wrens work constantly to bring food to their young.  I think 
they have been too tired to sing lately.

Take care of yourself.

Marsha