[MD] Zen

[skutvik at online.no]

Ron and all.

6 March:

Chris before: 
> Bo has it. Once again we see how messy things get when there isn't a
> clear WORKING definition of the 4th level.

Ron:
> But there isn't a clear working definition this why we invent one. But
> sometimes you guys give me the impression that you forget this is so.
> Bo's quote hits it squarely:

LILA: 
> >    The CULTURE in which we live, hands us a set of intellectual
> >    glasses to interpret experience with, and the concept of the
> >    primacy of subjects and objects is built right into these
> >    glasses.

Ron:
> The culture hands us s/o. s/o may not be a property of human
> intellectualism. But it is the property of our culture, our human
> Intellectualism.

You (still) use the term "culture" in your peculiar way and say that 
the S/O divide may be handed us by (our) culture, while (our) 
"human intellectualism." is neutral and just accepts what's fed it.
This is a bit like LILA (in places) where the 4th. level is presented 
as an mind-like realm that became fed the SOM and if the MOQ 
idea is fed it, it will press SOM down into oblivion.        

A while back I showed how Pirsig postulates a "cultural immune 
system" (that supports your culture-as-the-s/o-carrier) but I further 
showed that this really is the the 4th. level's immune system (I 
may repeat if needed) Culture is just a term for any group of 
people with a similar outlook, thus in the Western hemisphere the 
culture will be intellectual-steeped (S/O) while other cultures may 
be social-steeped.      

> So, For convenience sake we ASSUME SOM as intellect to gain A relative
> degree of certainty as it applies to our own Western condition. But to
> take it as an absolute fact General to all evolution ..... 

But it is an absolute fact general to all evolution. All levels are 
absolutes, if life is found on Mars it is the biological level, this 
goes for the social level (surely not found on Mars) and the 
intellectual level.   

> ...... is making the same ole SOM mistake of taking metaphor for
> reality. In reality there are no levels but the dance of Quality on the
> edge of awareness. 

Phew, "the SOM mistake ...etc" Have you been sleeping again? 
It's rationality's very value to distinguishing between metaphors 
and what's metaphorized. It's a characteristic of certain mental 
disorder to take metaphors literally. And - again - the levels are 
for real. The ocean waves are water too, but it's the water/wave 
distinction that counts. All level are quality levels, but it's DQ/SQ 
distinction that counts   

> Just as SOM uses zero and whole numbers for methods of planning
> And prediction SOL uses SOM as the 4th level in the same way.

"SOL uses SOM as the 4th.level"...Well, then, what IS the real 
4th. level? 

> I'm curious as to just how Bo intends to utilize SOL. Does he have A
> plan? 

I don't utilize SOL, I utilize the MOQ in a SOL interpretation and 
that is no deviation or heresy. Most of LILA supports it.

> Is it something akin to Radical empiricism? I suggested A Radical
> Metaphysic approach in the same line of thinking But haven't heard
> anything other than the level banging That's been going on
> ffffoooooooorrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer
> rr rrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I see you haven't forgoing me the "sleep in class" remark ;-) 
Regarding Radical Empiricism, it's William James at the "level" 
of young Phaedrus at an early stage of the Quality Idea in ZAMM, 
but from then on it's left behind in the dust ... only DMB acting as 
if it is some revelation.

> So Bo, whats the plan for SOL?

As said the plan is for the MOQ in a SOL interpretation which is 
the only one that gives it its mighty explanatory power. 

IMO

Bo