[MD] Zen

[Ron Kulp]

Arlo,
Great points, convincing
Bo of this is another story. I did'nt intend to paint
Society as anything bad just pointing out the heavy
Influence on thought it has. We are a bundle of socially 
Conditioned reflexes, the sooner we realize this, the sooner
We may gain control over our own situation.
Thanks for all the supporting Quotes, I haven't
The time at the moment to deeply engage Bo
On these points, but it supports my argument
With him and demonstrates the single largest
Flaw I see in his SOL interp.


Thanks Arlo!

The post was a keeper.







-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Arlo
Bensinger
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:23 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Zen

[Ron]
Cultivate individual awareness. Develop patterns of value separate 
from society, for society may dictate those values without our direct
knowledge

[Arlo]
I have to comment on this, Ron, because I think it reveals a 
deep-rooted S/O fallacy of western culture.

The social level is not a filter that distorts an otherwise "pure" 
perception of "the world", it is the very lens which makes our 
viewing the word "intellectually" possible. Certainly there are 
constraints to this vision (there HAS to be!) but there is also 
affordance. Some propose a MOQ that is simply 
"inorganic-biological-intellectual" with social being an "evil" force 
that interrupts or interferes with this process, a force to be 
overcome or removed from the equation.

But this is not Pirsig's MOQ. It is impossible to develop values 
"separate from society". This is the "myth of independence" Pirsig 
mentions in LILA. The social level is the foundation of our 
intellect, not a corrupting element to be overcome. "Mental patterns 
do not originate out of inorganic nature. They originate out of 
society." (LILA).

Once one sees intellect as dialogic (derived from social 
participation), one can see that the lens we assimilate does indeed 
"direct our values without our direct knowledge" but that this is an 
unavoidable correlate to the vision we acquire. We cannot have vision 
without this lens, and so thinking about the constraints as somehow 
"bad" misses the process completely.  As Pirsig says of Descartes' 
proclamation, "If Descartes had said, "The seventeenth century French 
culture exists, therefore I think, therefore I am," he would have 
been correct." (LILA)

"Our intellectual description of nature is always culturally derived."
(LILA)

But the unavoidable cultural foundation of intellect does not mean we 
are simple social automatons. That is merely one view offered by the 
S/O fallacy. Man does have agency, but his agency does not run in 
opposition to these constraints, it is enabled by them. And this is 
the key to getting past this ridiculous S/O rhetoric of "lone man v. 
evil society". We are always, unavoidably, operating within a range 
of vision afforded and constrained by our lens. This lens may filter 
some things out, but it also enables us to see what we do see.

One of the tremendous benefits to diversity is that we are given the 
opportunity to refocus our lens by seeing initially through a lens 
that is different from our own. This does not even have to be 
something so broad as the meeting of "east and west", but can involve 
encountering a sailing culture and suddenly being able to see the 
green flash of the sun. Because of man's agency, of course, even the 
meeting of two people is invariably a "clash of cultures" albeit 
often in very subtle ways (as opposed to the meeting of a western 
scientist with an aboriginal shaman).

This gets into an idea of ever-decreasing circles in contrast to 
absolute dichotomies, and is (I believe) behind Pirsig's valuable 
recognition about what "we" are.  "A culture of one. A culture is an 
evolved static pattern of quality capable of Dynamic change. That's 
what you are. That's the best definition of you that's ever been 
invented.You may think everything you say and everything you think is 
just you but actually the language you use and the values you have 
are the result of thousands of years of cultural evolution." (LILA)