[MD] MOQ Missionary

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Allright, so I get a little bored sometimes, and sometimes it is fun to 
whine at random internet people, and while it usually don't result in much 
amusement I think you all will find at least the last reply of this huy 
quite amusing and perhaps you will feel that you have heard this somewhere 
before.. =D

(I pointed out that Atheism is a belief system i.e a religion)

[Random Guy:]
Is it recognized that atheism is a religion? Really? By whom?

You're way off, mate. Atheism is NOT a religion, by definition it's just 
that: a desbelief in the existence of deity. How is THAT a religion? Because 
disbelief is also a belief? That's ridiculous, nothing more than word play.

[Me]
It is not word play, but rather the most basic philosophy. One must start 
with a metaphysical assumption in any case, and metaphysical assumptions can 
only be proved by other metaphysical assumptions - but no matter:

Atheism may not be an organized religion in the scale of Christianity or 
Islam say, but as you say Atheism has a core belief - That there is no god 
or anything like that - and this core BELIEF then links up with other 
assumptions that follows from it: the most predominant one being that there 
is an objective reality (or for that matter a subjective one) all of which 
is beliefs, and banded together they constitute a frame of reference of the 
world that is in essence no different in nature to religious views - both 
are systems with which to categorize and handle the experiences that people 
have.

[Random Guy]
ALL different in nature to religious views. Atheism is involved with science 
(though by now I think you might think science "is a form or religion" too). 
Anyway, if you're not sure that there is an objective reality and that there 
is a systematic method to find out approximate truths of this reality, 
called the scientific method, I suggest you jump out of a 50th floor, see if 
gravity is just a belief pretty much like religious ones. Who knows, maybe 
after the thump you'll wake up in an even wealthier country. Or you can test 
Ohm's law with your own body if you happen to have a pair of electrodes. It 
won't be so traumatic in the first low-voltage trials.

Anyway, it's all the more ridiculous since you DO lead your everyday life 
under the assumption that there is an objective reality.


[Me, amused]
Haha, I've heard this argument a million times. It's always the same. "But 
science can be proven!" - sure it can: within it's own realm. There is 
absolutely no denying that science is based on metaphysical assumptions 
however: and as for those "jump down a building and see what happens" kind 
of "arguments" they are really just noise in the wind. It doesn't prove an 
objective reality in any way: in truth you can't any way you try - because 
the concept of an objective reality is a metaphysical assumption, and to 
prove it you have to use the tools that that metaphysical assumption hands 
you. To simplify: first you say that the world is made up of A, then you 
prove this by using the tool AB. The problem is that this tool must be based 
on A to work, and thus A can't be proven.

So, if someone says that the world actually consists of 1 and then tries to 
prove this with the tool 1.2 - you are really doing the same thing.

(and to overly simplify A = There is an objective reality and 1 = God is the 
originator of our reality)


So it's all beliefs you see: what it comes down to is perhaps what belief is 
the most useful one: but then again if within the realm of assumption E 
there is no value in this kind of usefulness.


[Random Guy]
Anyhow, I put it this way: in your GUT you know that it'd still be stupid to 
jump off that building. And you don't dip your finger in boiled water 
because you KNOW you'll get burned, every time you do it. That's a pattern, 
but you choose to label that "A" as a metaphysical belief. Science is based 
on this kind of patterns and therefore it is as real as anything can get. 
But if you think this is all assumptions without basis, you may as well live 
in a nut house.


 - here I would enter and say: QUALITY. But I'm tired of missionary work and 
have work to do.