[MD] Truth and the Linguistic Turn

[David M]

Hi Ian

I was also musing about how our thoughts are linked to
our values and then may fed back to change even expereiences
like pain.

DM


> DM, Ron, DMB et al ..
>
> DM, I think this post and your later one are simply leading us to
> accept that yes, there is some pre-linguitsic, primary, immediate
> experience. Our "consciousness" of that is some kind of
> "pre-linguistic / pre-intellectual thought".
>
> Embracing reality directly.
>
> We always get tied in knots (the hot stove etc, except perhaps DMB
> invoking "radical empiricism") when we try to "define" it - which is
> hardly surprising - since as soon as we do that we move into the
> linguistic / intellectual realm.
>
> How much we all have the "same" pre-linguistic experience I suspect we
> will only ever know when we share those experiences
> pre-linguistically, directly - which clearly we are never going to do
> by e-mail.
>
> Regards
> Ian
>
> On 5/24/08, David M <davidint at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Ian/Ron
>>
>> Do we all experience pain in the same way?
>>
>> I remember reading about how for the ancients
>> Greeks, pain was an experience that provided the
>> opportunity to demonstrate how manly and herioc
>> they were. Not how I find myself experiencing it,
>> ouch, I want my mommy!
>>
>> David M
>>
>>
>>
>> > Interesting Ron, Arlo,
>> >
>> > This is leading us to the "immediate participation before (typically
>> > objective)intellectualization" story (if we weren't already there),
>> > but Ron,
>> >
>> > Why do you say it [the immediate response to Quality] "makes the MoQ
>> > questionable as to being axiomatic this way" ?
>> > Could you elaborate / explain that point ? Are you suggesting it is
>> > even more fundamental in some way than simply axiomatic of the MoQ ?
>> > (and hence the misundersanding with Bo in another thread)
>> >
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > On 5/14/08, Ron Kulp <RKulp at ebwalshinc.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > [Platt]
>> > > A particular person? Then why does Pirsig write, "Any person of any
>> > > philosophic persuasion who sits on a hot stove will verify without
>> > > any intellectual argument whatsoever that he is in an undeniably
>> > > low-quality situation: that the value of his predicament is
>> > > negative." (Lila, 5) Get it -- ANY PERSON.
>> > >
>> > > [Arlo]
>> > >
>> > > But, I will say, if Pirsig is implying that all humans with similar
>> > > biological constucts respond on the biological level to some
>> > > inorganic stimuli in more or less the same way, I would agree. Human
>> > > bodies biologically respond to "hunger" the same way (increased
>> > > stomach acid, energy deficiencies, etc). But each bounded organism
>> > > has its own unique threshold, its own unique responses, and over time
>> > > may come to "experience" hunger along a range of "low quality" to
>> > > "high quality" as this inorganic experience becomes mediated by
>> > > social and cultural patterns.
>> > >
>> > > When this monk sets himself on fire in intellectual protest, do you
>> > > see any evidence that he perceived his experience to be "low
>> > > quality"?
>> (http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V3627)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Ron:
>> > > How co-incidental, I was thinking of that same footage when
>> > > Reading your post.
>> > > On a side note, I think your statement is accurate, we all respond to
>> > > Stimuli in more or less the same way and in that aspect we
>> > > Respond to Quality. we still like to think objectively
>> > > About this statement. All in all it is this response to Quality that
>> > > Makes the MoQ questionable as to it being axiomatic in this way.
>> > > The proof lies in the fact that we all respond to Quality.
>> > > Not equally as you state, but that instant "no thinking" response
>> > > Is something all of us shares. It's this commonality that is the most
>> > > certain In our experience.
>> > > What do you think this?
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