[MD] Democracy

[Woods Woods]

Chris,

     I agree with everything you said.  I don't know about 
"welfare state" though, maybe you could explain how 
your country used to have one and what it did (and 
curious to hear why your country doesn't have it anymore).  
I totally agree with your thought on how society narrows knowledge 
and I would add actions.  Culture does this that's why 
there are so many cultures on this earth, there are so many 
ways to live.  Yet, the capitalistic, economic sphere of this 
culture does strangle-hold self-reliance (small farms, etc...), and 
this is corporatism bonding with U.S. gov't in ways that I don't know 
if this is really capitalism.  It's been around for a long time in the 
U.S. Amerindians first, Industrialism over Agriculturalism (the Civil War 
in the U.S. was about slaves but another aspect to this war was 
the industrialism of the north fighting over the agricultural culture of the 
south, which continued to be in conflict up to small farmers in the 
Great Depression getting booted off their farms by corporate farms (backed 
by the U.S. gov't), and then I believe the 1980's in the U.S. 
put another nail in the coffin of small farms and there are not 
many of them left.  Now the U.S. is built by international corporations 
and is dependent on China buying into the stock market in the U.S.  So 
what has happened is a move from self-reliant local activities towards a 
culture that depends on and has more and more international 
corporate interest backed by the U.S. gov't.
    So, I don't know if this is truly capitalism, for the free market hasn't 
been around for some time, as I posted about the U.S. gov't has 
bailed out large banks and firms for decades in the U.S. and these 
larger banks and corporations have been backed by the U.S. for decades 
to grow and they've been helped by this U.S. gov't to do their business (the 
U.S. Treasury Secretary Paulson as I mentioned about two weeks ago 
was at a China-U.S. dinner trying to encourage the Chinese to reinvest 
in the U.S. stock market for they weren't due to the economic crisis in the U.S. 
and world, so, the gov't helping out business, become the marketing tool 
for business daily (Bush after 9/11 told U.S. citizens to keep shopping and 
buying and that was his solution), etc..., etc... I think you get it.  Your onto 
something and I agree with you.  What is happening is immoral.  It's about 
the suppression of creativity, thus, the spirit.  
     I won't be able to get on the forum as regularly for some time again, so, 
I see ya.


thanks.

woods   



________________________________
From: Christoffer Ivarsson <IvarssonChristoffer at hotmail.com>
To: moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 8:34:53 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Democracy

Woods and everyone. Half my answer:


> Chris:
> What would be a good word for wanting to build a extensive welfare state with
> "radical" democracy? Because that is really what I am all about, I want to make
> democracy work by making it possible for people to understand what it is.
> To give them the time and the means to understand it. That's what a welfare
> state is Good for. So that people can feel safe and be able to develop themselves
> in whatever way they want. That way we can work towards a society where
> people needn't be so bound by social values, because they are liberated by
> being born into a society where realizing your potential and going after Quality
> is possible without the constant fear of failing and ending up on the streets or
> something like that.

> woods:
>    There is a lot in this.  If I have the intellectual patterns to continue, then I
> wouldn't mind parsing this.  I understand the fear aspect, but I wonder if
> it is really about not having a safety net and this holds people back? Are
> you suggesting this?

Chis:

I'm suggesting that society today is made up so that intellectual values always comes secondary, because the capitalist system puts focus on social level values. You are born into this society, and as you grow up you realise that unless you can get some money, you really can't do anything. For you to "make it" in that way is essential. You may have all kinds of goals in life, but your chances of pursuing them is determined by if you can afford it. In essence, if you value intellectual Good, before you can explore that you must gain high social value, and the chances of that may be small, because if what you value is knowledge within a certain area, you will be good at understanding that, but that may not necessarily translate into social value - I.e. you may not be able to make money out of it very quickly, and if you can't make money out of it, your chances of exploring that is very slim.

FIRST you need to make sure you can make some money, and THEN you can explore you potential .Some people are lucky, and what they value happens to be something you can make money out of, but that's far from everyone. And this limits humanity.

A welfare state, kind of like the one we used to have over here, should among other things make sure that when you are born and grow up, you are free to pursuit your potential, no matter what material conditions you have. And it is to make sure that if what you value is certain knowledge, you get to explore that, even if that knowledge doesn't immediately translate into monetary profits. That's maximising humanities recourses. You never know when me might need that knowledge that perhaps isn't all that profitable today.

THAT'S MY POINT! What is profitable controls what knowledge we can develop, AND THAT IS IMMORAL - because that you can make money out of it, most of the time that only means that it has high social value.

So how does one change that? What do you think?

To be continued -
Chris 
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