[MD] Democracy

[Horse]

Hi Platt

The piece you quoted was Annotation 132 in Lila's Child which was in 
reply to your comment:

"To fill the hole may require a new level above SOM. I’m not sure about 
this. After all,
the MOQ is an SOM document based on SOM reasoning."
Annotation 132 follows.

Pirsig's reply still doesn't equate Reason with SOM. What it says is 
that SOM employs reason, indicating that reason is an Intellectual POV. 
The MOQ also employs reason, as shown in one of your favourite quotes:

"Taken by itself that seems obvious enough. But what’s not so obvious is 
that, given a value-centered Metaphysics of Quality, it is absolutely, 
scientifically moral for a doctor to prefer the patient. This is not 
just an arbitrary social convention that should apply to some doctors 
but not to all doctors, or to some cultures but not all cultures. It’s 
true for all people at all time, now and forever, a moral pattern of 
reality as real as H2O. We’re at last dealing with morals on the basis 
of reason. We can now deduce codes based on evolution that analyze moral 
arguments with
greater precision than before." (Chapter 13 Lila)

So reason is not SOM because if it was then we would have SOM 
(Valueless) being used to support the MOQ (nothing but value) which 
would be a complete contradiction.

Another indication from Pirsig that SOM and Reason are not identical is 
the following:

"The intellectual level of patterns, in the historic process of freeing 
itself from its parent social level, namely the church, has tended to 
invent a myth of independence from the social level for its own benefit. 
Science and reason, this myth goes, come only from the objective world, 
never from the social world. The world of objects imposes itself upon 
the mind with no social mediation whatsoever. It is easy to see the 
historic reasons for this myth of independence. Science might never have 
survived without it. But a close examination shows it isn’t so." 
(Chapter 12 Lila)

I think the main problem I have with the idea that SOM and Reason are 
identical is that in order for this to be correct, then Bo's SOL would 
be correct and I just don't believe this is the case. And neither does 
Pirsig, so I'm in pretty good company.


Cheers Platt

Horse

PS
Thanks to you (and Andre) for the nice things you said about me - I do 
appreciate it.


Platt Holden wrote:
> Hi Horse, 
>
> [Horse wrote]
>   
>> So can you give me an instance of where Pirsig specifically equates 
>> reason with SOM.
>>     
>
> "It employs SOM reasoning the way SOM reasoning employs social structures 
> such as courts and journals and learned societies to make itself known.  
> SOM reasoning is not subordinate to these social structures, and the MOQ is 
> not subordinate to the SOM structures it employs.  Remember that the 
> central reality of the MOQ is not an object or a subject or anything else.  
> It is understood by direct experience only and not by reasoning of any 
> kind.  Therefore to say that the MOQ is based on SOM reasoning is as useful 
> as saying that the Ten Commandments are based on SOM reasoning.  It doesn't 
> tell us anything about the essence of the Ten Commandments and it doesn't 
> tell us anything about the essence of the MOQ." (Note 132, LC)
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
>
>   
>> Platt Holden wrote:
>>     
>>>> Hi Platt
>>>>
>>>> Just a minor point - why do equate reason (or "reason alone") with SOM.
>>>> Surely reason is an intellectual POV and not a whole metaphysical
>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>> Horse
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> Hi Horse,
>>>
>>> Bo has given a fine answer to your question. Here's another one.  From
>>>       
>> the 
>>     
>>> Wikipedia entry on "reason:"
>>>
>>> "Reasoning thought follows a chain of cause and effect, and the word 
>>> 'reason' can be a synonym for 'cause.' "
>>>
>>> >From Note 56, Lila's Child:
>>>
>>> "The word 'produced' implies that  Dynamic quality is a part of a cause
>>>       
>> and 
>>     
>>> effect system of the kind generated by scientific thinking.  But Dynamic
>>> Quality cannot be part of any cause and effect system since all cause
>>>       
>> and 
>>     
>>> effect systems are static patterns."
>>>
>>> Great to hear from you. It gives me an opportunity to express my 
>>> appreciation for the high quality of your design and maintenance of 
>>>       
>> this 
>>     
>>> site. All participants past and present owe you a debt of gratitude if
>>>       
>> not 
>>     
>>> cash contributions which you have repeatedly refused to ask for or
>>>       
>> accept. 
>>     
>>> Be assured, however, that your efforts have not been overlooked or 
>>> forgotten. I know I speak for many here in saying, "Thanks."
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Platt  
>>>       
>
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>   

-- 

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"... Hunter S Thompson