[MD] Shouldn?t we be, like, revolting ?

[skutvik at online.no]

Hello Christoffer
 
>From yours of 2 Oct. there remained a few points. 

Chris:
> And furthermore - when I (and Magnus some time ago) identify the free
> market as a social level pattern (at the core), do you not agree on
> this?

According to Pirsig communism is an intellectual pattern, that much I 
remember, but where does he place capitalism (I don't have LILA 
here) I don't think at the social? WW2 was as social vs intellect conflict 
nazism the former's last stand in the Western hemisphere, but USA 
(free market) USA and USSR (planned market)  were on the same 
side. All in all I don't know where you draw this conclusion from.

> And if you make this analysis - that the free market is a social level
> pattern - do you feel that it is a big leap for me to say that it is
> easily identifiable that social level values, such as the hunger for
> profit and the whole capitalist system, is indeed oppressing and
> controlling intellectual patterns when only the knowledge that is
> profitable (I.e. has social value) has a reasonable chance to develop
> and grow?

Q-social values are about the "common cause" so the individual taking 
advantage (getting rich) at the cost of the group does not sound social, 
but then Pirsig points to "celebrity" as a social pattern and wealth may 
be a means of becoming famous, hence "hunger for profit". However 
this goes in a communist state as much as in a capitalist. No I think 
you and Magnus are out to bash America, an European past-time ;-).

Another thing from a more recent post       

3 Oct. you said to Woods:

> Right. I'm not saying anything except perhaps to ask you how ony from a
> MOQ perspective would identify a nation that requires children to
> recite such a pledge? And a Quote: 

> "We are moving towards a fascist theocracy when you have a government
> that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion, and
> that moral code turns into legislation, to suit a certain religious
> point of view, and if that moral code happens to be very very right
> wing [.] then we are moving towards a fascist theocracy ."
 
> - Frank Zappa 1986

The MOQ says that we are of all levels so there is a social self under 
the intellectual self even in our intellect-steeped culture, and this social 
component will identify with one's country (there may be lesser and 
greater ones, at times a football team at other a religion) and nations 
must necessarily use social symbols like flag, anthems, oaths of 
allegiance and appeal to our chief social "expression", namely 
emotions. Intellect shows its preponderance through the various 
constitutions that emphasize the individual, its worth and freedom and 
inviolability, but intellect is out of society, there is no individual freedom 
without a society that grant us freedom. The MOQ also say that when 
circumstances makes the upper level untenable we will revert to the 
next lower level - in this case is the social - with its simpler and more 
stable patterns. After 9/11 the Americans reverted to social level 
patriotism and many intellectual-granted rights had to yield, but as 
soon as the danger was over intellect bounced back. OK, I could go on 
for ever about this, the gist is that all countries are social patterns, but 
some are overlaid with intellectual values as in the Western World.        

Bo