[MD] Commie Talk and USA bashing?

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Allright everyone,

long text, but I think you will find it interesting/infuriating.

Answering Bodvars answers regarding my commie take on the MOQ:

> Chris:
>> And furthermore - when I (and Magnus some time ago) identify the free
>> market as a social level pattern (at the core), do you not agree on
>> this?

[Bo]
> According to Pirsig communism is an intellectual pattern, that much I
> remember, but where does he place capitalism (I don't have LILA
> here) I don't think at the social? WW2 was as social vs intellect conflict
> nazism the former's last stand in the Western hemisphere, but USA
> (free market) USA and USSR (planned market)  were on the same
> side. All in all I don't know where you draw this conclusion from.

In lila there is three things: The basics of a philosophy, a simple story, 
and the authors examples of how things fit into the philosophy from his 
point of view. It's only the first that we need to focus on - as I have said 
before, the MOQ is much larger than both the books and Mr Pirsig himself. I 
think you with your SOL should agree on this?

So when I place capitalism as a system that at the core is a social level 
pattern, I do so by looking at the basics of the philosophy and following a 
strict line of reasoning that shows me that:

The free market is a system that is greater than the biological components 
that created it. Biological values is not at it's core, in fact, biological 
values is often crushed by the market as life isn't something it values.  At 
the core of the system that is the market there is nothing other than 
profit. Indeed profit, translated into various symbols such as money holds 
no value either  biological nor intellectual, although the value that lies 
in money (or something equivalent of money) can be translated (yes, 
translated is the right word) into things that have biological or 
intellectual value. The value that lies in the accumulation of wealth  - 
which is the core value here - is most closely related to POWER and 
CELEBRITY - the most predominant social values there is. Money may equal 
POWER and CELEBRITY, and even though it is natural that something that holds 
great value to the social level will be beneficial also for the biological 
level it is not really the same, although of course this is most notably 
when it comes to the intellectual level and the social in conflict.

So from this I draw the conclusion that the market is indeed a social level 
pattern, and since the market is older than you Bodvar claim that the 
intellectual level is, I don't really see how you can disagree on this.

Furthermore I would like to point out to everyone that although the market 
as such is a social level pattern att it's core, the MOQ talks about balance 
between the levels, so the reason I speak for a Marxist economy is because 
(a) in my book that means a gradual, but complete change in the economic 
system in order to ensure that intellectual patterns gain supremacy over 
social ones (I.e that profit never is allowed to dictate what course the 
human quest for knowledge is to take etc) and (b) because when a completely 
free market is allowed to roam free, social level patterns is supreme, to 
the extent that both intellectual and biological values suffer horribly - 
the market is that strong a pattern - as we have seen throughout history, 
all the way back to the Neolithic revolution.


That's that about that for now, and one more point from Bo:

[Bo]
>> No I think
>> you and Magnus are out to bash America, an European past-time ;-).


Actually - in this case - no. bashing America is indeed a European 
past-time, and I think we do it mainly out of disappointment: when the 
Middle East act like idiots we aren't really surprised, but when our 
"Promised Land" over and over aging so blatantly shows us that it isn't 
there anymore, and that what's left is just a huge frightening pile of 
stupid - with 2600 nuclear warheads: we get frightened and hugely 
disappointed. I know the good America is still there, but to quote Bill 
Maher:

"There is this progressive European nation that a lot of us live in and 
would like to live in, and it's being strangled by the Sarah Palins of the 
world; it can't quite be born, because this other stupid redneck nation won't 
allow it."

BUT (:-P) my points above is not aimed at the USA but at the world really. 
And you MOQers in particular.


Regards

Chris

PS. Bodvar, I chose to answer the main points in this, thought it was best, 
if you feel we need to return to something feel free to say so.