[MD] Metaphysical issues: DQ

Fri Oct 10 10:32:11 PDT 2008

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From: <moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:09 PM
To: <moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org>
Subject: Moq_Discuss Digest, Vol 35, Issue 41

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1.  Tao: The Great Mother (Andre Broersen)
>   2. Re: Metaphysical issues: DQ (Christoffer Ivarsson)
>   3. The intellectual level (skutvik at online.no)
>   4. Re: Metaphysical issues: DQ (Platt Holden)
>   5.  Federal Reserve Unconstitutional (Andre Broersen)
>   6. Re: Metaphysical issues: DQ (Woods Woods)
>   7. What the hell is going on? (Christoffer Ivarsson)
>   8. Re: Tao: The Great Mother (MarshaV)
>   9. Re: Federal Reserve Unconstitutional (Woods Woods)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:26:31 +0200
> From: "Andre Broersen" <andrebroersen at gmail.com>
> Subject: [MD]  Tao: The Great Mother
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Message-ID:
> <3ca2b8b0810100826w7e505e17k24ba461e08c01eb0 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Marsha, you do this so often,
>
> Providing a link to somewhere/thing gawd knows where.Please speak! Let me
> hear you as a dynamic pattern of all levels of fantastic quality and not
> just refers us to dead /stable patters of what has been.
>
> Love your shooting for the moon...I think I prefer to be amongst the 
> stars.
>
> Andre
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:38:22 +0200
> From: "Christoffer Ivarsson" <IvarssonChristoffer at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysical issues: DQ
> To: <moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY108-DS7E108C33C33F1128966ADAD350 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
>
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysical issues: DQ
>
>> I hope your study of history reveals the purges, mass famines, show
>> trials,
>> killing fields and concentration camps that exterminated millions under
>> atheist Marxist regimes in Russia, China, Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Cuba,
>> etc. in  the 20th century.
>
> This has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying. But you can be 
> assured
> that the department of history at Lund University does teach basic 
> history.
>
> I hope your studies reveals the terrible things an unchecked market leads
> to.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:01:54 +0200
> From: skutvik at online.no
> Subject: [MD] The intellectual level
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Message-ID: <48EF9892.11050.110425F0 at skutvik.online.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi Andre
>
> 9 Oct. u wrote:
>
> Bodvar before:
>
>> > "I could not agree more, this definition of intellect is clearly not
>> > correct MOQ-wisely. Manipulation of symbols is what language is about
>> > (plus mathematics, logic ..etc) Nor I understand what "no corresponding
>> > particular experience" means, but Pirsig could not bring himself to
>> > agree fully with the SOL interpretation (intellect=the subject/object
>> > distinction) in this case: symbols/what they symbolize".
>
> ??:
>> This places language fairly and squarely at the social and
>> intellectual level.
>
> I did not say this Andre, yet I agree about language as social, the
> "intellectual part (of language) however must be understood properly.
> This from Pirsig to Paul Turner in a letter of 2005 ) for instance.
>
>    When getting into a definition of the intellectual level much
>    clarity can be gained by recognizing a parallel with the lower
>    levels. Just as every biological pattern is also inorganic, but not
>    all inorganic patterns are biological; and just as every social
>    level is also biological, although not all biological patterns are
>    social; SO EVERY INTELLECTUAL PATTERN IS (ALSO)
>    SOCIAL ALTHOUGH NOT ALL SOCIAL PATTERNS ARE
>    INTELLECTUAL. (my caps)
>
> To start with the inorganic-biological all living organisms are composed
> of matter, but not all matter is alive. Likewise all intellectual patterns
> utilize the social pattern language, but what language conveys isn't
> necessarily social.
>
>> Bodvar ( and anyone interested of course) do you want to persue this
>> further? I think it is very important as I have a hunch that something
>> is not quite right in all this. I do want to get a grasp on this Int
>> PoV but demands of work prevent me from devoting the time it deserves
>> at the moment.
>
> The core problem is that - for some reason - Pirsig shifted from his
> original insight in ZAMM that Quality gives rise to subjects and object
> (the SOM) and in the first proto-moq he explicitly says that
> intellect=SOM, but when LILA arrived the 4th. level had become
> something very vague: more like "mind", namely an idea realm that
> SOM has hijacked and what the MOQ will replace. This leaves the
> STATIC intellectual  level anything but static, it can contain SOM one
> moment and MOQ the next.
>
> The problem rests with Pirsig's statement about the MOQ an
> intellectual pattern, which is clearly wrong; the intellectual level is a
> MOQ pattern! However, Pirsig is just as ambiguous, LILA contains
> many passages that conveys the (correct) intellect=S/O notion and in
> the said Paul Turner letter he rejects the mind intellect. In addition he
> says that suggesting an intellectual level before the Greeks makes it
> useless and - NB! - "Greeks" in a MOQ context means SOM. Yet, he
> could not bring himself to say so, but launched the impossible "symbol
> manipulation intellect" that has led so many astray.
>
>> Also can we change it into another thread? Simply: the intellectual
>> level?
>
> Complied with ;-)
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:11:35 -0400
> From: "Platt Holden" <plattholden at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysical issues: DQ
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Message-ID: <48EF4677.22433.4A885E3 at plattholden.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
> [Platt]
>> > I hope your study of history reveals the purges, mass famines, show
>> > trials,
>> > killing fields and concentration camps that exterminated millions
>> under
>> > atheist Marxist regimes in Russia, China, Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia,
>> Cuba,
>> > etc. in  the 20th century.
>
> [Chris]
>> This has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying. But you can be
>> assured
>> that the department of history at Lund University does teach basic
>> history.
>>
>> I hope your studies reveals the terrible things an unchecked market leads
>> to.
>
> I'll take unchecked capitalism with its Dynamic freedom any day compared 
> to
> the wholesale murders of millions Marxism has led to.."A free market is a
> Dynamic institution." (Lila, 17)

haha, not THERE'S the Platt we all love to hate! Why aren't you on FOX?

oh, and btw, Institutionalizing DQ is impossible.