[MD] growth and sustainability

[David M]

Hi Gav

I suspect you're right, it can't. Perhaps we need to get away from using
greed and competition as motivating foces if we want to improve
our societies. Is there an alternative? Can we work for better reasons
of responsibility and cooperation for what we agree is worth doing 
(quality).
I mean a lot of volunteers and mothers/parents and wives and carers already 
work
for little or nothing. Do we need to grow up and start working for what we 
want
and know we need rather than for selfish advantage?

David M


> okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based economic system (ie 
> capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how can we avoid the boom - bust - war 
> cycle that has characterised capitalism in practice for the past century 
> or so.
>
> of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war things to 
> be avoided. (general assent here?)
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Ian Glendinning <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Ian Glendinning <ian.glendinning at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 7:23 PM
>> Ah yes Schumpeter, Kondratiev waves of cultural evolution in
>> economic
>> cycles .... in my Master's thesis almost 20 years ago.
>> A big fan.
>>
>> Profit is good ... it's just that a free (like totally
>> free, man)
>> market may be the best way to make profits, but it's
>> not the best way
>> to decide how they're used .... some public
>> accountability /
>> regulation / insurance for lean times is needed there.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 1:12 PM, ml
>> <mbtlehn at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> > I don't know if anyone has pointed out that
>> > the nineyeenth century view of capitalism
>> > ostensibly espoused here by many of the anti-
>> > freemarket crowd ourght be replaced with a
>> > better model as per Schumpater. ( So, read
>> > Schumpater. all who have an SQ view of the
>> > free market system, or you are on the wrong
>> > page, pointing at a rock and calling it a bird.)
>> >
>> > Profit, rather than being theft from the workers of
>> > their  blood, sweat and tears, has more correctly
>> > been pointed out to be, for a company, more like
>> > the fall feeding of a bear--the necessary cushion
>> > through lean times for survival of the enterprise.
>> > (This is not todrny that there are some humans
>> >  who act like thieves and steal from the enterprize
>> >  and their fellow workers.  That is a different
>> problem
>> >  similar to the 'more equal' problem in other
>> systems.)
>> >
>> > Profit also pays for the growth of the enterprise and
>> > EVERY company I've worked for or owned paid a
>> > bonus to employees that spread the profit to them.
>> >
>> > Not for profit operations often operate less
>> efficiently
>> > and squander any chance of surplus and returns less
>> > if anything to community.
>> >
>> > thanks--mel
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: <craigerb at comcast.net>
>> > To: <moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:59 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability
>> >
>> >
>> >> [gav]
>> >> is profit inherently unsustainable? or is
>> >> there room for profit in a sustainable economy?
>> >
>> >  Gav,You're comparing two different things: the
>> structure of the
>> > workplacevs. its profit status.  The structure of the
>> workplace can be
>> > egalitarian(everyone has an equal voice) or it can be
>> hierarchial (either
>> > top-down orbottom-up).A company can be for-profit or
>> non-profit.  All
>> > combinations are possible.For instance, a for-profit
>> company can have an
>> > egalitarian structure.If investors find this structure
>> more efficient (=
>> > more profitable)they will prefer it.  On the other
>> hand, a non-profit
>> > hospital will generallyhave a chief administrator
>> (with an advanced degree
>> > in hospitalmanagement) & won't consult the
>> janitorial staff on new
>> > medicalequipment purchases.What happens when an
>> employee controlled,
>> > non-profit companycompetes against a for-profit one?
>> Assume they are
>> > bothmanufacturing companies, competing in the same
>> market,selling the same
>> > product for the same price.
>> >
>> > The price gets allocatedinto 4 categories:
>> > I)                variable costs (utilities, raw
>> materials)
>> > II)              capital costs (land, building,
>> machines)
>> > III)            wage
>> > IV)            "P-factor" (to be explained).
>> > To simply: Assume the rates for I) & II) are the
>> same.In the for-profit
>> > company, investors provide the capital.In the
>> non-profit company, the money
>> > for the capital is borrowed.The amount allocated to
>> III) & IV) vary
>> > inversely.In the for-profit company, the lower III)
>> wages get,the higher IV)
>> > the "P-factor" (= profit) is.In the
>> non-profit company, the money for
>> > capital costs (+ interest)is repaid from IV) the
>> "P-factor", the rest goes
>> > to III) wages.The capitalist puts downward pressure on
>> wages,while the
>> > employee controlled company puts upward pressureon
>> them.            Craig
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > ----
>> >
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