[MD] growth and sustainability

[ml]

greetings,

<snip>
m-prior
> >Theory merely reflects what it sees in the world,
> > tries to explain it, and becomes an excuse to take
> > action in the world.
> > (Don't mistake governmental trade policies set by
> > politicians for
> > economic theory either, though they try to wear the mantle.)

>G
> the chicago school has defined US economic policy for the past 30 years.
> the chicago school is a school of economics.
> this neo-liberal economic ideology has seriously fucked up the planet, at
a much greater rate than the previous decades (when we were doing a pretty
good job at fucking the planet already).
>
> the US bullies the rest of the world into adopting the 'free trade
agenda', which boils down to: our corporations are free to roam the planet
sourcing the cheapest labour and resources, exploiting them for huge profit,
then fucking off and leaving a human and environmental mess for someone else
to clean up.

m
I meant to include most of the examples in your above reply in my
prior paranthetical.  Not to EXCUSE them, but to remove legitimacy
of the intellectual effort of ECONOMICS and I should point out that
their actions are Social Level, instead.


>G
> this is what seattle was about...remember? i got the crap kicked out of me
by riot police in melbourne for sitting on the ground (in a very provocative
manner!) blockading the world economic forum in 2000. its very clear how the
world works, it becomes even clearer when you see it up close.

m
well...don't sit provocatively.   ;-)     Seriously, though, if you are as
impassioned to effect change as it seems, have you thought of the
possibility of getting into the arena?



>
> >
> > <snip>
>G
> okay tell me what good is economics. how has it enriched our lives?

m
The act of studying something is an intellectual value.
Micro-economics, applied, is why we have seen the cost of
telecom drop so precipitously over the decades.   It is why
pharmaceuticals on average are less expensive that in
prior decades.  As Bionomics states, "through accumulated
production experience the cost of goods falls forever."
This "formula" is why aspirin is less expensive to produce
and to purchase and has a lower relative environmental
footprint than in the past.




<snip>

G
> who gives a flying fuck my dear!!!!!!!!!!!!
> this is all irrelevant: it's just numbers.

m
the simplicity of our minds requires that the complex
be modeled and abstracted for our comprehension,
and that means both narative-for the story and
numbers-for the magnitudes.  Observe how David
Suzuki so effectively use that technique.  We might
argue over specific points he raised, but both of us
got the picture he was pitching, to mix metaphores.


g
> i don't care if bill gates is on my fucking roof, he is a fucking twat
that made shit software.

m
We keep boogie men under the bed up here,
is the roof a down-under practice?  As to your
characterizing BG as a genital, there my be some
merit, although I think of Windows more as the
annoying dog that keeps humping peoples' legs.

g
> what i do care about is that a society that allows such
> obscene resource concentration is totally out of balance
> and...well look what is happening....

m
You've got a heavy "OUGHT" load in that lament.
I will add something you might not like, but of the
people I know, those who work 80-100 hours per
week do tend to have more toys than I do.  I don't
resent it though, because I have something they
don't, time to think about what is outside of work.

>G
> there is one earth and we all have to live on her. we can respect the
earth, each other and ourselves and live long happy lives or we can pretend
that everything is okay whilst things go from worse to 'holy fuck!'

m
Part of it is about the long view.  The coldest, most dispassionate
CAPITALIST decision about the world would be to preserve the
ecosystem(s), biodiversity, and lower the pollutant load.  Any
businessman worth he salt wants to assure the future of his market.
No planet, not market...no biosphere , no market.

Part of it is education.  If you can come up with an economic
model that adds an "environmental contstant" into the equation
you make that a "real value" in economics.

Economists likely understand David Suzuki no better than he
understands them.  Much as he speaks of restoring the "shattered"
 world, that is done by different tactics than ranting, railing,
historionics,
bullying, threatening, sitting provocatively, or disinformation ala
Al Gore.   Those all do more damage to their cause than help.

Restoring the shattered world would look more like folks who truly
understand the science of the environment (as opposed to the
rhetoric) choosing to study economics to the point of transforming it,
becoming economists themselves...




>G
>  look it's very simple: the MOQ is a theory, it is made up. in reality
there are no
>  levels, all is one. the MOQ is a nice tool but it is degenerate to use it
as if
>  it were how things really are.
>

m
MOQ is a theory, its techniques that come to be developed will be useful
tools to the extent they help us to understand and live in the world more
reasonably...  but like any tool, we'd best know the theory well before
we apply the tool or to use analogy, we might find we are looking down
the barrel when we pull the trigger and that will be a low-quality
experience.

G
> i am sick by the way: headache, snotty - so i am a bit short-tempered.
>
> i am feeling very very over this stupid fucking western world, that i, for
some unknown reason, find myself still in. i feel like K in the castle. i
really do.

m
...just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, medicine go down.

seriously, though, get better...

thanks--mel