[MD] patterns revisited

[MarshaV]

At 07:29 PM 10/24/2008, you wrote:

>Hi Marsha
>
>I think we experience without concepts and there are patterns
>we experience before we name them, then language enables
>us to trace out and name these patterns and this skill can
>be taken further and used to trace out more patterns that
>pre-linguistic experience could not use.

Hi David,

I totally agree direct experience is without patterns.  And I am not 
stating that what is conceptual is necessarily a pattern.  It think 
thoughts can be direct experience too.  I am thinking _patterns_ are 
conceptual (mental activity) in nature.

There must be a time when a pattern is recognized, yet not yet 
named.  There may be a time when a pattern is recognized, but the 
name as an aspect of a patterns has not been recalled.  This seems 
plausible, but in general, patterns have designations.

I still think that patterns are conceptual, mental, in nature.  Memory?

>Language enables
>an increasing ability to trace out patterns, some patterns
>are closer to causes others to possibilities, all equally real,
>whether having pre or post linguistic identities.

My topic is not language.  My topic is the nature of patterns 
(spovs), which I say is conceptual.  I'm using the word conceptual to 
mean mental activity.   The mental activity could certainly, at 
least, be images.  Auditory too.

So my idea is that patterns are conceptual (mental activity), and, in 
the case of inorganic, NOT the external natural phenomenon.  The 
patterns refers to the external natural phenomenon, but IS NOT the 
external natural phenomenon.

What do you think of what I think?


Marsha




>>At 03:32 PM 10/23/2008, you wrote:
>>>Hi Marsha
>>>
>>>When you eat an apple I'd suggest that a pre-linguistic pattern
>>>repeats, i.e. the taste, of course we trace the patterns that are
>>>ofhuman interest to us like the horizon but nature is not just a
>>>flux thereis order and change, SQ and DQ, with new SQ
>>>continuing to emerge via both nature and culture, all patterns
>>>to the MOQ.
>>
>>DM,
>>
>>I don't understand your response to my post.  Is an organic pattern 
>>named tree, actual phenomena or is it conceptual pattern referring 
>>to phenomena? Yes, DQ is the flow though which all patterns change.
>>
>>Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>SA,
>>>>
>>>>A bit of a new beginning.
>>>>
>>>>When I say the nature of all patterns is conceptual, I'm saying 
>>>>that patterns are mental in nature.  They are held in 
>>>>minds.  What an individual pattern refers to can be categorized 
>>>>as inorganic, biological, social and intellectual.   This is 
>>>>important.  The pattern is the static part of the experience, it 
>>>>is not the experience.
>>>>
>>>>The referent of inorganic and biological level patterns are 
>>>>external, natural phenomenon.  Kind of like things.  But there 
>>>>really are no 'things'.  There are only ever-changing, 
>>>>interrelated, overlapping systems and processes.  Nature does not 
>>>>name, define or isolate.
>>>>
>>>>The referent of social and intellectual level patterns are 
>>>>ideas.  I understand Intellectual-static-patterns-of-value to be 
>>>>"defined very loosely as the level of independently manipulable 
>>>>signs. Grammar, logic and mathematics can be described as the 
>>>>rules of this sign manipulation." (letter to Paul Turn 2003)
>>>>
>>>>Let's not get into the problems of intellectual spov versus 
>>>>thinking. Thinking is not an indication of a 
>>>>intellectual-static-pattern-of-value. Thinking to me is a tool 
>>>>like seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.
>>>>
>>>>What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a 
>>>>reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
>>>>.
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>.
>>.
>>The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a 
>>reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
>>.
>>.
>>
>>
>>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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>
>
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.
.
The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a 
reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
.
.